3 ms·

It's my understanding the sickness from milk isn't fatal. There are many foods which have comparable levels and even much higher risk. Somehow raw milk gets a

It's my understanding the sickness from milk isn't fatal. There are many foods which have comparable levels and even much higher risk. Somehow raw milk gets all The attention. Like most things medical you can't compare the risk to the population as a whole. Risk factors, environment and individual farms will vary risk greatly.

fragmede 2y ago
> It's my understanding the sickness from milk isn't fatal. Salmonella, e. coli, and listeria have killed people so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. True, most people don't, but most people also don't die from flu, but some still do.
- tombert 2y ago
  And tuberculosis! That's arguably the most deadly disease in recorded history.
- base698 2y ago
  https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/dangers-raw-milk-unpasteurized-milk-can-pose-serious-health-risk https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/dangers-r... Any of the articles about it never mention fatalities. You can get all the above from lettuce and deli meat.
  - tombert 2y ago
    > You can get all the above from lettuce and deli meat. That's a whataboutism, and a pivot. Just because you can get them from lettuce or deli meat doesn't mean you shouldn't consider it with raw milk.
    - base698 2y ago
      I'm just asking if you're comfortable about a lot of other risks, some worse, why is this one specifically worse? Because you hate dirty hippies?
      - tombert 2y ago
        I don't think most people who drink raw milk are dirty or hippies and I don't hate people who are dirty or hippies and I never said anything that even remotely implies that. I have no idea where the fuck that came from. Communicable fatal diseases are objectively scary. Tuberculosis is a communicable potentially fatal disease. You probably won't spread your e.coli. that you got from your undercooked hamburger by coughing on them, but you can spread your tuberculosis that way. These risks should thus be taken a lot more seriously and the statistics become more difficult. I frankly do not give a shit if all you ever drink is raw milk in regards to disease that get you sick, use it to replace water, bathe in it for all I care, far be it for me to tell you how to live your life, but infectious airborne diseases are a different story to me. I know all of this comes down to calculated risk, you can't get anything involving food down to zero risk and I never asserted as such, so fundamentally everything in regards to food comes down to "which risks do we want society to put up with?". The reason I keep fixating on the tuberculosis point is that is a particularly nasty disease and I don't know the actual number of cases we should be willing to tolerate as a society, and AFAIK there's no TB vaccine.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    has Salmonella killed anybody: yes. has e. coli killed anybody: yes. has listeria killed anybody: yes. has salmonella from raw milk killed anybody yet: your source says no. it's just a matter of time before someone does die from salmonella from raw milk. Thanks to science that's a completely avoidable death, but to each their own. You're not forcing me to drink raw milk, and i'm not forcing you to drink processed milk. and yes, wash your veggies.
tombert 2y ago
You can catch tuberculosis from raw milk. Tuberculosis can absolutely be deadly, and it can be spread to non-raw-milk drinkers, which means it's my business, not just telling people what they can or can't drink.
- base698 2y ago
  How many cases per 100k? Where do people typically contract it?
  - tombert 2y ago
    You moved the goalpost. You said "It's my understanding the sickness from milk isn't fatal." You didn't say "it's usually not fatal", in which case I might agree. You said it's "your understanding that it's not fatal", so I was pointing out that your understanding was wrong. I realize I'm being annoyingly pedantic on this, but I think it's a claim that needs to be addressed. It's important to know that you can get a disease from product X, whether it be from raw milk or lettuce or undercooked beef or whatever. Pretending that you cannot die from raw milk infections is dishonest.
    - base698 2y ago
      To make it more clear, it's not typically fatal and many other foods cause higher levels of both sickness and fatalities. To get any number of fatalities you have to expand the timeline like 40 years. I'd consider that basically never. I've not seen anything claiming TB is a risk even in sources like the CDC and FDA. Maybe it is, but given the small numbers of illness I'd wager it's something localized or that effects people with serious underlying health complications.
      - tombert 2y ago
        > I've not seen anything claiming TB is a risk even in sources like the CDC and FDA You didn't look very hard then. This was after a ten second search [1]. From the article: > However, humans also can become infected, most commonly through consumption of unpasteurized milk products from infected cows. Also this from the NIH [2]: > Contamination of unpasteurized dairy products can occur by a variety of mechanisms: direct contact with bovine feces, transmission of the organisms from bovine skin/hide, bovine mastitis, primary bovine diseases (i.e., tuberculosis), and environmental contamination from insects, other animals, or humans (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2017a). [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9262997/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9262997/

fragmede 2y ago

> It's my understanding the sickness from milk isn't fatal. Salmonella, e. coli, and listeria have killed people so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. True, most people don't, but most people also don't die from flu, but some still do.

tombert 2y ago
And tuberculosis! That's arguably the most deadly disease in recorded history.
base698 2y ago
https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/dangers-raw-milk-unpasteurized-milk-can-pose-serious-health-risk https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/dangers-r... Any of the articles about it never mention fatalities. You can get all the above from lettuce and deli meat.
- tombert 2y ago
  > You can get all the above from lettuce and deli meat. That's a whataboutism, and a pivot. Just because you can get them from lettuce or deli meat doesn't mean you shouldn't consider it with raw milk.
  - base698 2y ago
    I'm just asking if you're comfortable about a lot of other risks, some worse, why is this one specifically worse? Because you hate dirty hippies?
    - tombert 2y ago
      I don't think most people who drink raw milk are dirty or hippies and I don't hate people who are dirty or hippies and I never said anything that even remotely implies that. I have no idea where the fuck that came from. Communicable fatal diseases are objectively scary. Tuberculosis is a communicable potentially fatal disease. You probably won't spread your e.coli. that you got from your undercooked hamburger by coughing on them, but you can spread your tuberculosis that way. These risks should thus be taken a lot more seriously and the statistics become more difficult. I frankly do not give a shit if all you ever drink is raw milk in regards to disease that get you sick, use it to replace water, bathe in it for all I care, far be it for me to tell you how to live your life, but infectious airborne diseases are a different story to me. I know all of this comes down to calculated risk, you can't get anything involving food down to zero risk and I never asserted as such, so fundamentally everything in regards to food comes down to "which risks do we want society to put up with?". The reason I keep fixating on the tuberculosis point is that is a particularly nasty disease and I don't know the actual number of cases we should be willing to tolerate as a society, and AFAIK there's no TB vaccine.
- fragmede 2y ago
  has Salmonella killed anybody: yes. has e. coli killed anybody: yes. has listeria killed anybody: yes. has salmonella from raw milk killed anybody yet: your source says no. it's just a matter of time before someone does die from salmonella from raw milk. Thanks to science that's a completely avoidable death, but to each their own. You're not forcing me to drink raw milk, and i'm not forcing you to drink processed milk. and yes, wash your veggies.

tombert 2y ago

You can catch tuberculosis from raw milk. Tuberculosis can absolutely be deadly, and it can be spread to non-raw-milk drinkers, which means it's my business, not just telling people what they can or can't drink.

base698 2y ago
How many cases per 100k? Where do people typically contract it?
- tombert 2y ago
  You moved the goalpost. You said "It's my understanding the sickness from milk isn't fatal." You didn't say "it's usually not fatal", in which case I might agree. You said it's "your understanding that it's not fatal", so I was pointing out that your understanding was wrong. I realize I'm being annoyingly pedantic on this, but I think it's a claim that needs to be addressed. It's important to know that you can get a disease from product X, whether it be from raw milk or lettuce or undercooked beef or whatever. Pretending that you cannot die from raw milk infections is dishonest.
  - base698 2y ago
    To make it more clear, it's not typically fatal and many other foods cause higher levels of both sickness and fatalities. To get any number of fatalities you have to expand the timeline like 40 years. I'd consider that basically never. I've not seen anything claiming TB is a risk even in sources like the CDC and FDA. Maybe it is, but given the small numbers of illness I'd wager it's something localized or that effects people with serious underlying health complications.
    - tombert 2y ago
      > I've not seen anything claiming TB is a risk even in sources like the CDC and FDA You didn't look very hard then. This was after a ten second search [1]. From the article: > However, humans also can become infected, most commonly through consumption of unpasteurized milk products from infected cows. Also this from the NIH [2]: > Contamination of unpasteurized dairy products can occur by a variety of mechanisms: direct contact with bovine feces, transmission of the organisms from bovine skin/hide, bovine mastitis, primary bovine diseases (i.e., tuberculosis), and environmental contamination from insects, other animals, or humans (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2017a). [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a4.htm [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9262997/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9262997/