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> General Nathan Flynn recited a very strange prayer at one of his gatherings. Turns out it’s a prayer from the Church Universal and Triumphant This is in the

> General Nathan Flynn recited a very strange prayer at one of his gatherings. Turns out it’s a prayer from the Church Universal and Triumphant This is in the article. As an aside, your repeated use of the word "cult" and the word "fascist" detracts from your comment. Both words have been diluted past all meaning, and using them together so frequently in just a few paragraphs induces a lot of cringing from anyone who is moderately familiar with either religious studies or political science. They're essentially just expletives at this point and don't add much meaning beyond intense disapproval. The Silver Shirts were straight-up fascists. The other movements you refer to were right-wing nationalist movements but I see no evidence of most of the characteristics of fascism except that you try to paint them with the same brush by referring to a vague association between founders.

Ylpertnodi 2y ago
They're only diluted if you let them be.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  I assume the objection above was to avoid them being diluted, here. I'm also trying to figure out if you're trying to say that if we just react to the words as if they were being properly applied no matter what, that will prevent them from being diluted. Because that's not good.
- mistermann 2y ago
  Pray someone doesn't come along and take all of your magical words away some day.
WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
> the word "cult" ... have been diluted past all meaning Another interpretation is that Cult has been somewhat disarmed from it's modern, weaponized usage. Historically, Cult was as a neutralish term. In discussing religious groups, Cult helped clarify that the group in focus was a subset of a larger group. It was also used as a catchall reference to small religions. In the latter 20th century, Evangelical authors/lecturers (eg:Walter Martin) strongly associated Cult with evil and used it to help introduce+nurture animosity toward smaller, unliked Christian faiths. If Cult hadn't been so loaded with sinister vibes, it might not have become the term we use to reference cloistering, manipulative groups.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Eh, when paired with "fascist" it's pretty clear that OP is using "cult" in much the same way that Evangelical Christians use it. Both words are essentially a label that identifies a movement as something that you should be opposed to if you're not either evil or naive.
  - WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
    > [cult is] essentially a label that identifies a movement as something that you should be opposed to if you're not either evil or naive. I don't disagree with your assessment here. I am okay, however, with Cult becoming defanged. Cult's negative connotations sprung from the worst of intentions - to divide Christians by demonizing other, smaller Christian faiths. Turning a vulnerable group into an (punishable) enemy is a classic fascist tactic. I argue that the negative associations with 'Cult' were originally a product of fascist methods. The further we are from all of that, the better I'll feel.
nemo 2y ago
Trying to language police the use of the word fascism to describe right-wing authoritarians is a waste of time and for me raises a bright red flag for the person doing the language policing. Instead of trying to get people to stop using a term of common parlance to describe the emerging and growing spread of right-wing authoritarianism, perhaps you might want to consider doing some constructive instead, or just coping with the fact that with the current rise of right-wing authoritarian extremism that mirrors prior rises of the same, some people are going to use a word you don't like to describe it.
- WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
  > the use of the word fascism to describe right-wing authoritarians is a waste of time Sort of adjacent to your point. I think the label 'Fascist' best serves us when we apply it to fascist behaviors. I'm not saying Fascist isn't a reasonable label for people who embrace fascist behaviors. It is. But 1) understanding and identifying fascist behaviors - this is how we know when to apply the label and 2) the behaviors are the mechanism for harm; they deserve our greater focus and 3) People are multiple things and things change. Behavior is what it is.
cess11 2y ago
What characteristics did you test against?
- lolinder 2y ago
  A few of them [0]: > a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Our vocabulary in the US around politics (left and right) gives the false impression that politics is a 2D spectrum. It's not, and very few right-wing groups today have many shared beliefs with fascists at all. This includes the nutjobs who think they're Nazi sympathizers. According to Orwell the word was already a mostly meaningless insult by 1944 [1], and it's still a mostly meaningless insult: > Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come. > ... All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism [1] https://www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19440324.html https://www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune...
  - cess11 2y ago
    Elizabeth Prophet didn't dictate her organisation? It wasn't obsessed with nuclear weapons? Their view of initiation doesn't signal a belief in a natural social hierarchy? They didn't sign over their personal assets in service of this ultra-nationalist organisation? I don't think you've tried to determine their politics at all, you just want to say that the dominant ideology of the US is not allowed to be named.

Ylpertnodi 2y ago

They're only diluted if you let them be.

pessimizer 2y ago
I assume the objection above was to avoid them being diluted, here. I'm also trying to figure out if you're trying to say that if we just react to the words as if they were being properly applied no matter what, that will prevent them from being diluted. Because that's not good.
mistermann 2y ago
Pray someone doesn't come along and take all of your magical words away some day.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago

> the word "cult" ... have been diluted past all meaning Another interpretation is that Cult has been somewhat disarmed from it's modern, weaponized usage. Historically, Cult was as a neutralish term. In discussing religious groups, Cult helped clarify that the group in focus was a subset of a larger group. It was also used as a catchall reference to small religions. In the latter 20th century, Evangelical authors/lecturers (eg:Walter Martin) strongly associated Cult with evil and used it to help introduce+nurture animosity toward smaller, unliked Christian faiths. If Cult hadn't been so loaded with sinister vibes, it might not have become the term we use to reference cloistering, manipulative groups.

lolinder 2y ago
Eh, when paired with "fascist" it's pretty clear that OP is using "cult" in much the same way that Evangelical Christians use it. Both words are essentially a label that identifies a movement as something that you should be opposed to if you're not either evil or naive.
- WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
  > [cult is] essentially a label that identifies a movement as something that you should be opposed to if you're not either evil or naive. I don't disagree with your assessment here. I am okay, however, with Cult becoming defanged. Cult's negative connotations sprung from the worst of intentions - to divide Christians by demonizing other, smaller Christian faiths. Turning a vulnerable group into an (punishable) enemy is a classic fascist tactic. I argue that the negative associations with 'Cult' were originally a product of fascist methods. The further we are from all of that, the better I'll feel.

nemo 2y ago

Trying to language police the use of the word fascism to describe right-wing authoritarians is a waste of time and for me raises a bright red flag for the person doing the language policing. Instead of trying to get people to stop using a term of common parlance to describe the emerging and growing spread of right-wing authoritarianism, perhaps you might want to consider doing some constructive instead, or just coping with the fact that with the current rise of right-wing authoritarian extremism that mirrors prior rises of the same, some people are going to use a word you don't like to describe it.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
> the use of the word fascism to describe right-wing authoritarians is a waste of time Sort of adjacent to your point. I think the label 'Fascist' best serves us when we apply it to fascist behaviors. I'm not saying Fascist isn't a reasonable label for people who embrace fascist behaviors. It is. But 1) understanding and identifying fascist behaviors - this is how we know when to apply the label and 2) the behaviors are the mechanism for harm; they deserve our greater focus and 3) People are multiple things and things change. Behavior is what it is.

cess11 2y ago

What characteristics did you test against?

lolinder 2y ago
A few of them [0]: > a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Our vocabulary in the US around politics (left and right) gives the false impression that politics is a 2D spectrum. It's not, and very few right-wing groups today have many shared beliefs with fascists at all. This includes the nutjobs who think they're Nazi sympathizers. According to Orwell the word was already a mostly meaningless insult by 1944 [1], and it's still a mostly meaningless insult: > Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come. > ... All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism [1] https://www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19440324.html https://www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune...
- cess11 2y ago
  Elizabeth Prophet didn't dictate her organisation? It wasn't obsessed with nuclear weapons? Their view of initiation doesn't signal a belief in a natural social hierarchy? They didn't sign over their personal assets in service of this ultra-nationalist organisation? I don't think you've tried to determine their politics at all, you just want to say that the dominant ideology of the US is not allowed to be named.