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I know people who have advocated raw milk since the 70s. Very progressive folks. They're pissed to have become "right wing" without having changed any opinions.

I know people who have advocated raw milk since the 70s. Very progressive folks. They're pissed to have become "right wing" without having changed any opinions. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/03/10/the-alt-right-rebrand-of-raw-milk-00145625 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/03/10/the-alt-ri...

tremon 2y ago
Ah, the joys of living in a society incapable of nuance.
blindriver 2y ago
[flagged]
- krapp 2y ago
  It wasn't a pivot. Anti-vax belief was never as mainstream a position amongst the left as it is now among the right, it was generally condemned as new-age nonsense, particularly where the "vaccines cause autism" crowd was concerned. The left has always been the pro-science, pro-government side in general, which is why the right condemns them as "godless atheists" and "communists," because the right tends to put more weight on religion, spirituality and suspicion of secular power as part of its narrative of preserving traditional (read:religious) morality against a conspiracy of evil seeking to undermine them. People (not all of whom were leftist) followed pandemic protocols because most people are not conspiracy theorists and they considered doing so to be perfectly reasonable in the context of a pandemic. For most people, there was no political angle to wearing masks, social distancing, quarantines or what have you, it was just the Trumpists who made it so.
  - rvnx 2y ago
    It's a bit wild to claim that the vaccines are perfectly safe and that we are certain of it. The truth is probably in-between, neither really safe, neither really unsafe. The vaccines are okay-ish, they have some use, and work against a disease that originally was very violent (and by natural selection and mutations got weaker and weaker), but now with all the mutations that the virus has gone through, not sure it's really good or really effective at all (unless you meet the virus from 5 years ago). Regarding science: The leftists are usually against governments (e.g. anarchism, communism), and for the people to decide, and to promote "woke" values. The pro-governments and rules is more of a rightist trait (supporting police, border control, etc), and to promote "traditional" values.
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      Covid hasn't particularly gotten weaker, there's just roughly zero people left that don't have some baseline immunity, either from vaccination or infection.
  - blindriver 2y ago
    You really shouldn’t talk about things you don’t know or didn’t live through. The government was the one trying to crack down on free speech, banning rap music and other things that gave alternative views. The government was the one that wasn’t allowing gays to marry. The government was the one sending troops to wars that no one cared about. The government was the one who created the Patriot act to strip people of their rights. The government was the one enriching Wall Street, protecting Big Pharma and letting police run around beating Rodney Kings all the time. The government was not to be trusted at all. This was what life was like for liberals in the 80s, 90s and even early 00s. The idea that the left was supporting government shows you know nothing about how life was like even 20 years ago. Rage Against the Machine famously protested the DNC because both parties suck. Nowadays if you don’t support the government or believe the CDC or FDA, or if you don’t want to support the proxy war in Ukraine, you’re somehow a MAGA alt right white nationalist. They have really done a number on the entire country.
    - krapp 2y ago
      Don't act like you have me pegged, jackass. I lived through all of that. The vast majority of American leftists, at least prior to the web normalizing political radicalization by virtue of giving a greater platform to non-white and LGBT activism, were at best progressives who might listen to RATM, or might show up to a protest, but still supported mainstream political causes. If they voted, they voted for Democrats. They tended by and large to believe that government had a legitimate social function to fill, was necessary to further progressive causes, and that reform was possible within the system. In the weakest sense, they still tended to support the status quo, even if they opposed specific policies. Actual communists, anarchists or radicals were few and far between. The mainstream left spent decades posturing because they were never willing to go far enough to upset the apple cart of white privilege and capitalism. But more pertinent to the actual context of this thread and your thesis, most of those leftists also tended not to be anti-vaxx (at least it wasn't a belief explicitly tethered leftist identity.) Your claim that the left was always the anti-pharma group and supported vaccine policies because Trump somehow "broke them" and caused them to betray their ideals is just patently ridiculous. I don't know why you bother calling yourself a "traditional liberal" while pushing the sort of anti-leftist narrative that only exists within a neo-Trumpist view of leftism. Take your false flag nonsense somewhere else, please.
- tombert 2y ago
  It's actually kind of a myth that progressives used to be the primary "anti vax" crowd [1]. I definitely did meet progressives who thought vaccines were dangerous, but I met many more conservatives that were "skeptical" of vaccines way before COVID. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/03/01/conservatives-are-more-likely-to-believe-that-vaccines-cause-autism/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/03/0...
  - blindriver 2y ago
    It’s not a myth at all. All the granola progressive lefts were all primarily anti-vax and most moderate to progressive lefts were definitely anti-big pharma and anti-military industrial complex. I know because I lived long enough to be friends with them and live among them and am left myself, at least a 90s left wing liberal that was fervently anti-government and anti-war and anti-pharma.
    - tombert 2y ago
      Nope, sorry, personal anecdotes are not evidence no matter how many times you repeat them across multiple threads (also what does being anti-military-industrial-complex have to do with being anti-vax)? The data seems to indicate you are just wrong. Sorry.
      - blindriver 2y ago
        Good thing you’re not the authority on that.
        tombert 2y ago
        I'm not 100% sure why your anecdata is somehow more valid than mine? Anyone on the internet can claim anything, it's ridiculous if you think that you just asserting that something is true because of your personal vibes is convincing to anyone. At least I provided a source. You provided literally nothing.
      - linearrust 2y ago
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  I wouldn’t ascribe your views on these topics to being “a traditional liberal.” These seem unrelated at best to traditional liberalism.
  - blindriver 2y ago
    Good thing you’re not the authority on that.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      “For an HN user like myself, the sky is yellow and fish control the airwaves”
- macintux 2y ago
  > ...supporting forever wars like Ukraine Opposing Russian aggression, rape, and slaughter in Europe is now a left-wing thing? Trump broke one political party psychologically, but it isn't the left-wing one.

tremon 2y ago

Ah, the joys of living in a society incapable of nuance.

blindriver 2y ago

[flagged]

krapp 2y ago
It wasn't a pivot. Anti-vax belief was never as mainstream a position amongst the left as it is now among the right, it was generally condemned as new-age nonsense, particularly where the "vaccines cause autism" crowd was concerned. The left has always been the pro-science, pro-government side in general, which is why the right condemns them as "godless atheists" and "communists," because the right tends to put more weight on religion, spirituality and suspicion of secular power as part of its narrative of preserving traditional (read:religious) morality against a conspiracy of evil seeking to undermine them. People (not all of whom were leftist) followed pandemic protocols because most people are not conspiracy theorists and they considered doing so to be perfectly reasonable in the context of a pandemic. For most people, there was no political angle to wearing masks, social distancing, quarantines or what have you, it was just the Trumpists who made it so.
- rvnx 2y ago
  It's a bit wild to claim that the vaccines are perfectly safe and that we are certain of it. The truth is probably in-between, neither really safe, neither really unsafe. The vaccines are okay-ish, they have some use, and work against a disease that originally was very violent (and by natural selection and mutations got weaker and weaker), but now with all the mutations that the virus has gone through, not sure it's really good or really effective at all (unless you meet the virus from 5 years ago). Regarding science: The leftists are usually against governments (e.g. anarchism, communism), and for the people to decide, and to promote "woke" values. The pro-governments and rules is more of a rightist trait (supporting police, border control, etc), and to promote "traditional" values.
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    Covid hasn't particularly gotten weaker, there's just roughly zero people left that don't have some baseline immunity, either from vaccination or infection.
- blindriver 2y ago
  You really shouldn’t talk about things you don’t know or didn’t live through. The government was the one trying to crack down on free speech, banning rap music and other things that gave alternative views. The government was the one that wasn’t allowing gays to marry. The government was the one sending troops to wars that no one cared about. The government was the one who created the Patriot act to strip people of their rights. The government was the one enriching Wall Street, protecting Big Pharma and letting police run around beating Rodney Kings all the time. The government was not to be trusted at all. This was what life was like for liberals in the 80s, 90s and even early 00s. The idea that the left was supporting government shows you know nothing about how life was like even 20 years ago. Rage Against the Machine famously protested the DNC because both parties suck. Nowadays if you don’t support the government or believe the CDC or FDA, or if you don’t want to support the proxy war in Ukraine, you’re somehow a MAGA alt right white nationalist. They have really done a number on the entire country.
  - krapp 2y ago
    Don't act like you have me pegged, jackass. I lived through all of that. The vast majority of American leftists, at least prior to the web normalizing political radicalization by virtue of giving a greater platform to non-white and LGBT activism, were at best progressives who might listen to RATM, or might show up to a protest, but still supported mainstream political causes. If they voted, they voted for Democrats. They tended by and large to believe that government had a legitimate social function to fill, was necessary to further progressive causes, and that reform was possible within the system. In the weakest sense, they still tended to support the status quo, even if they opposed specific policies. Actual communists, anarchists or radicals were few and far between. The mainstream left spent decades posturing because they were never willing to go far enough to upset the apple cart of white privilege and capitalism. But more pertinent to the actual context of this thread and your thesis, most of those leftists also tended not to be anti-vaxx (at least it wasn't a belief explicitly tethered leftist identity.) Your claim that the left was always the anti-pharma group and supported vaccine policies because Trump somehow "broke them" and caused them to betray their ideals is just patently ridiculous. I don't know why you bother calling yourself a "traditional liberal" while pushing the sort of anti-leftist narrative that only exists within a neo-Trumpist view of leftism. Take your false flag nonsense somewhere else, please.
tombert 2y ago
It's actually kind of a myth that progressives used to be the primary "anti vax" crowd [1]. I definitely did meet progressives who thought vaccines were dangerous, but I met many more conservatives that were "skeptical" of vaccines way before COVID. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/03/01/conservatives-are-more-likely-to-believe-that-vaccines-cause-autism/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/03/0...
- blindriver 2y ago
  It’s not a myth at all. All the granola progressive lefts were all primarily anti-vax and most moderate to progressive lefts were definitely anti-big pharma and anti-military industrial complex. I know because I lived long enough to be friends with them and live among them and am left myself, at least a 90s left wing liberal that was fervently anti-government and anti-war and anti-pharma.
  - tombert 2y ago
    Nope, sorry, personal anecdotes are not evidence no matter how many times you repeat them across multiple threads (also what does being anti-military-industrial-complex have to do with being anti-vax)? The data seems to indicate you are just wrong. Sorry.
    - blindriver 2y ago
      Good thing you’re not the authority on that.
      - tombert 2y ago
        I'm not 100% sure why your anecdata is somehow more valid than mine? Anyone on the internet can claim anything, it's ridiculous if you think that you just asserting that something is true because of your personal vibes is convincing to anyone. At least I provided a source. You provided literally nothing.
    - linearrust 2y ago
llamaimperative 2y ago
I wouldn’t ascribe your views on these topics to being “a traditional liberal.” These seem unrelated at best to traditional liberalism.
- blindriver 2y ago
  Good thing you’re not the authority on that.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    “For an HN user like myself, the sky is yellow and fish control the airwaves”
macintux 2y ago
> ...supporting forever wars like Ukraine Opposing Russian aggression, rape, and slaughter in Europe is now a left-wing thing? Trump broke one political party psychologically, but it isn't the left-wing one.