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UK executive knocks back Govt projects that don't consider FOSS

39 points by tankenmate 14y ago

celticninja 14y ago
I work for the civil service in the UK and previosuly the oppositte was true. When looking for new software solutions FOSS was not appropriate because "the tender process could not assess free software".
arethuza 14y ago
I wonder what proportion of the government IT spend went on licenses - I suspect the real crimes were the billions paid to consulting companies during the Labour years. In fact, if I was really cynical (which I am when it comes to how HMG spends our money) I might wonder if the use of open-source software might be pushed by consulting companies as an opportunity to increase their share of spend, rather than decreasing actual project costs.
- gaius 14y ago
  I'd like to see every penny of that money clawed back in windfall taxes.
  - Retric 14y ago
    Paying down debt does the same thing more efficiently.
- vetler 14y ago
  Yeah, that is cynical. As a consultant, I push open-source software because I like working with it. This is the first time I've heard someone suggesting that it might be an opportunity to increase their share of spend, but ... you have a good point. However, it's not automatic that reduced software costs result in higher consulting fees. The government might have more money in general to spend on projects, but that's a good thing for everyone.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- vidarh 14y ago
  Even if the use of open source is used by consulting companies to increase their share of spend, I'd assume that still would increase the likelihood of the UK government benefiting through corporation taxes and income taxes for the people involved vs. license fees. Of course that assumes consulting fees are more likely than license fees to be paid to UK companies.
- mjwalshe 14y ago
  Yes that does seem to be the model in a lot of open source as documentation is normally rather lacking and is of the look hers how to add 2+2 than covering the product in depth. Ive been using mysql for 10+ years and the documentation on security still hurts my brain to look at - and AWS is even worse one of my developer colleges was unable to decipher how to log onto one of our aws systems even though he had the AWS login - the documentaion is confusing poorly written and in some key places just wrong!
  - viraptor 14y ago
    I'm not sure why bad documentation seems to be the open-source domain. I'm equally surprised to find useful documentation in both open and closed software really. The main difference is that open-source docs are usually lacking in general, while closed-source docs are there in large quantities (if someone figured out auto-generation, there's hundreds of pages) but still don't tell you anything important. The only part that changes is that someone was forced by contract to produce something - but it doesn't need to be usable. I think these days I actually prefer to just look at the code to see what's going on rather than hope that on page 2xx I'll find something useful. Only the first source will never lie.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  You wonder if the use of open-source software is pushed by consulting companies as an opportunity to increase their share of spend. Proprietary companies also want to increase their share of spend. Unless open source companies charge more, what does it matter?
Maxious 14y ago
In Australia, all IT tender responses must include a FOSS option to be considered valid http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/strategy-and-governance/docs/2010-004_AGIMO_Circular_Open_Source_Software_Policy.pdf http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/strategy-and-governan...
iuguy 14y ago
To put this into context, open source was previously deigned not acceptable in large swathes of government due to procurement and liability problems. HMG civil servants have mostly developed an inate and enviable skill in blame deflection, non-answering and political maneuvering mostly due to the politicisation of their day jobs. It's an odd world out there. So by forcing them to consider FOSS this is the government's attempt to put it right. If they just told people that FOSS was now acceptable, people in some parts of HMG would still use closed source software in case the wind changes again. What's bad is that departments appear to be excessively pressured into open source, which is not a good idea. It's important to go for the best tool for the job and the things you can manage the most effectively, which might not always be open source.
- DanI-S 14y ago
  > What's bad is that departments appear to be excessively pressured into open source, which is not a good idea. It's important to go for the best tool for the job and the things you can manage the most effectively, which might not always be open source. That wasn't the impression I got from the article: “We believe open source isn't properly considered when we are doing IT. Our objective is not to have a target for open source in government – a year on year increase. Our objective is to best explore the opportunities out there. Sometimes that might be open source. At the moment, we believe we are missing out on the opportunities.” Based on that quote, it sounds like they are taking a surprisingly well considered approach. Is this not the case in some departments?
  - iuguy 14y ago
    I can only talk about my own experiences, but given the pushes for cuts in costs open source is now being touted around some places as being the way to go, regardless of best tool for the job. As I said, HMG is a very strange place and it's big too, so not everything will be the same, but I've seen a couple of projects in the past 12 months where people have come back and challenged the decision to go with things like Oracle DB versus MySQL and so on. Once you're getting accused of flagrant spending (worse than death in some bits of HMG) on licences, you tend to over-cut.
- 14y ago
waqf 14y ago
The word "executive" is confusing at best in the submission title, because we don't have the "three branches" mythology in the UK. Maybe just simplify it to "UK govt knocks back projects ...", if you don't want to get into the details of the Cabinet Office's rôle?

39 points by tankenmate 14y ago

I work for the civil service in the UK and previosuly the oppositte was true. When looking for new software solutions FOSS was not appropriate because "the tender process could not assess free software".

arethuza 14y ago

I wonder what proportion of the government IT spend went on licenses - I suspect the real crimes were the billions paid to consulting companies during the Labour years. In fact, if I was really cynical (which I am when it comes to how HMG spends our money) I might wonder if the use of open-source software might be pushed by consulting companies as an opportunity to increase their share of spend, rather than decreasing actual project costs.

gaius 14y ago
I'd like to see every penny of that money clawed back in windfall taxes.
- Retric 14y ago
  Paying down debt does the same thing more efficiently.
vetler 14y ago
Yeah, that is cynical. As a consultant, I push open-source software because I like working with it. This is the first time I've heard someone suggesting that it might be an opportunity to increase their share of spend, but ... you have a good point. However, it's not automatic that reduced software costs result in higher consulting fees. The government might have more money in general to spend on projects, but that's a good thing for everyone.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
vidarh 14y ago
Even if the use of open source is used by consulting companies to increase their share of spend, I'd assume that still would increase the likelihood of the UK government benefiting through corporation taxes and income taxes for the people involved vs. license fees. Of course that assumes consulting fees are more likely than license fees to be paid to UK companies.
mjwalshe 14y ago
Yes that does seem to be the model in a lot of open source as documentation is normally rather lacking and is of the look hers how to add 2+2 than covering the product in depth. Ive been using mysql for 10+ years and the documentation on security still hurts my brain to look at - and AWS is even worse one of my developer colleges was unable to decipher how to log onto one of our aws systems even though he had the AWS login - the documentaion is confusing poorly written and in some key places just wrong!
- viraptor 14y ago
  I'm not sure why bad documentation seems to be the open-source domain. I'm equally surprised to find useful documentation in both open and closed software really. The main difference is that open-source docs are usually lacking in general, while closed-source docs are there in large quantities (if someone figured out auto-generation, there's hundreds of pages) but still don't tell you anything important. The only part that changes is that someone was forced by contract to produce something - but it doesn't need to be usable. I think these days I actually prefer to just look at the code to see what's going on rather than hope that on page 2xx I'll find something useful. Only the first source will never lie.
slurgfest 14y ago
You wonder if the use of open-source software is pushed by consulting companies as an opportunity to increase their share of spend. Proprietary companies also want to increase their share of spend. Unless open source companies charge more, what does it matter?

Maxious 14y ago

In Australia, all IT tender responses must include a FOSS option to be considered valid http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/strategy-and-governance/docs/2010-004_AGIMO_Circular_Open_Source_Software_Policy.pdf http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/strategy-and-governan...

iuguy 14y ago

To put this into context, open source was previously deigned not acceptable in large swathes of government due to procurement and liability problems. HMG civil servants have mostly developed an inate and enviable skill in blame deflection, non-answering and political maneuvering mostly due to the politicisation of their day jobs. It's an odd world out there. So by forcing them to consider FOSS this is the government's attempt to put it right. If they just told people that FOSS was now acceptable, people in some parts of HMG would still use closed source software in case the wind changes again. What's bad is that departments appear to be excessively pressured into open source, which is not a good idea. It's important to go for the best tool for the job and the things you can manage the most effectively, which might not always be open source.

DanI-S 14y ago
> What's bad is that departments appear to be excessively pressured into open source, which is not a good idea. It's important to go for the best tool for the job and the things you can manage the most effectively, which might not always be open source. That wasn't the impression I got from the article: “We believe open source isn't properly considered when we are doing IT. Our objective is not to have a target for open source in government – a year on year increase. Our objective is to best explore the opportunities out there. Sometimes that might be open source. At the moment, we believe we are missing out on the opportunities.” Based on that quote, it sounds like they are taking a surprisingly well considered approach. Is this not the case in some departments?
- iuguy 14y ago
  I can only talk about my own experiences, but given the pushes for cuts in costs open source is now being touted around some places as being the way to go, regardless of best tool for the job. As I said, HMG is a very strange place and it's big too, so not everything will be the same, but I've seen a couple of projects in the past 12 months where people have come back and challenged the decision to go with things like Oracle DB versus MySQL and so on. Once you're getting accused of flagrant spending (worse than death in some bits of HMG) on licences, you tend to over-cut.
14y ago

waqf 14y ago

The word "executive" is confusing at best in the submission title, because we don't have the "three branches" mythology in the UK. Maybe just simplify it to "UK govt knocks back projects ...", if you don't want to get into the details of the Cabinet Office's rôle?