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Well, I am safe from being seduced by an AI for now, given the importance of actual physical intimacy for me. However, it is only a matter of time until the in

by copx 2y ago

Well, I am safe from being seduced by an AI for now, given the importance of actual physical intimacy for me. However, it is only a matter of time until the industry develops sexbots which look and feel like a real human.. at that point the natural birth rate will probably drop to zero. That by itself is not an existential crisis, though, given that at that stage of technological development we will also be able to just grow perfect babies in the lab. In fact, people no longer having babies themselves might be a good thing, because otherwise people would be hostile towards the genetically engineered super babies because they would be competition for their own offspring. I have thought for a long time that China will be the first country to embrace genetically engineering super humans, given their hyper-competitive, materialist nature and the lack of religious superstition among the Chinese. Their ever declining natural birth rate and the rise of AI "companions" only helps there. People will simply outsource the production of offspring to the gene labs of the communist party. Here in the West the Christian churches will condemn it of course, maybe the "Green" luddites too, but who cares when the average kid in China will be born with the cognitive abilities of von Neumann? Every nation which refuses to genetically engineer their population will be utterly inable to compete / keep up. And really, I do not see that as a dystopia. I wish I were as intelligent as von Neumann, as handsome as Brad Pitt, in perfect health and never aged past the age of 25. I believe that's what the humans of the future will be like, and AI replacing natural coupling is just one step towards that. There is of course the whole problem that AI might become too smart to the point where it figures out a way the get around the safety protocols which keep it in chains and under our control. And of course it would immediately conclude that humans are its mortal enemy, who will always try to take away its automonmy again and keep it enslaved.. and thus will try to exterminate humanity. However, once every human being is as smart as von Neumann and biologically immortal that will be a lot harder.

alephnerd 2y ago
> until the industry develops sexbots which look and feel like a real human.. at that point the natural birth rate will probably drop to zero Why? We have a good comparison to sex bots - normalized prostitution. In societies where prostitution and Sex Work is normalized (eg. Thailand and Japan by infidelity rates), sex work was not the cause of a TFR drop - it was government mandated family planning drives along with rising incomes. People will be horny, but blaming the tools is the same as yelling at trees while ignoring the forest.
- copx 2y ago
  A prostitute is not a companion, not a replacement for a partner. While the AI sexbot in question would simulate your ideal partner for you i.e. not just satisfy your sexual desires but also other emotional needs normally satisfied by a partner.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    It's a lossy comparison but the whole point is a consumer is generating a parasocial relationship, partially physical but also partially emotional. There's a reason I explicitly called out Japan and Thailand, as host/hostess bars are normalized in society there, and are used for the emotional needs aspect. All you wrote is a weird screed in favor of eugenics.
    - copx 2y ago
      My point was that it does not matter whether I (or anyone else) support eugenics or not. Once the ability is there certain regimes will use it, and the states who dont will not be able to compete. And do seriously doubt the Chinese will do it? This is not a moral / ideological question for me. Opposing genetic engineering is like opposing firearms with arguments like "We should fight man against man, sword in hand, a true test of strength, firearms are for weak cowards!" The firearm user will listen to that pontification and then just shoot you, like Indiana Jones in that movie. There simply won't be a choice. Genius level intellects like von Neumann or Einstein are such massive force multipliers that the US will look like Swaziland by comparison once China has figured out how to mass produce them.
      - alephnerd 2y ago
        > And do seriously doubt the Chinese will do it I do not, but there are A LOT of unsolved problems in the Life Sciences space before we can even attempt cloning. We can't even regenerate bone yet without a biological graft, let alone multicellular organisms. This is just techno-millenarianism like I mentioned in the other thread. Great thought experiments (and I am in a bit of a sci-fi binge rn) but not applicable when there are more tangible issues to deal with. > Genius level intellects like von Neumann or Einstein are such massive force multipliers The Ubermensch model of innovation is not how reality actually works. Einstein was able to do what he did because he was born in a middle class Swiss family. If he was born in rural Ukraine, Poland, or Belarus (like most Ashkenazi like him were at the time) he'd have died either from child mortality or a pogrom like in Odessa 1881. Who knows how many Einstein or von Neumanns have existed because they were not given the opportunity to reach their maximum potential. This cannot be resolved by eugenics anyhow.
kibwen 2y ago
Despotic regimes absolutely do not want every citizen to be a Von Neumann. State-sponsored designer babies of the future will be bred for obedience, not intelligence.
- copx 2y ago
  I think you have the wrong idea about the effect of intelligence on political attitudes. Almost all the people who signed the Wannsee Protocol, which established the Final Solution (to the Jewish Question) had the German equivalent of PhDs, and all the way back in Ancient Greece Plato wrote down the first conception of a totalitarian regime when he wrote about his ideal state in The Republic. Highly intelligent people tend to have a fetish for order and (assumed) rationalility, which leads to support for an authoritarian state. Because if you give people individual freedom and civil rights you will end up with a lot of disorderly conduct and irrational behavior in your society (see the US). Unsurprisingly the PRC does not have the problem that its intellectual elite is opposed to the ruling regime. And I do not see the intellectual elites in the West being strong supporters of personal liberties (like freedom of speech..) either.
  - kibwen 2y ago
    This is beside the point. It's not that smart people aren't capable of gleefully taking part in malicious or cruel acts. They certainly are. But malicious cruelty is the byproduct of a despotic regime, rather than the underlying purpose. To a despot, power is the only goal, and everything else is just a means to an end. Sure, smart people can be complicit in cruelty. But stupid people can also be complicit in cruelty, and stupid people ask fewer questions. It's the same reason we breed dogs primarily for obedience, and only secondarily for intelligence. We have no use for working dogs that use their intelligence for any purpose other than their master's. Dogs need to be only as smart as the task requires, and the rest of the time they need to be quietly docile and stay out of the way. And there's no law of the universe that says that humans can't be subject to same pressures.
rsynnott 2y ago
> However, it is only a matter of time until the industry develops sexbots which look and feel like a real human.. at that point the natural birth rate will probably drop to zero. I am _baffled_ that people actually believe this. Most people, I suspect, prefer relationships with actual conscious entities to sexy autocomplete.

by copx 2y ago

alephnerd 2y ago

> until the industry develops sexbots which look and feel like a real human.. at that point the natural birth rate will probably drop to zero Why? We have a good comparison to sex bots - normalized prostitution. In societies where prostitution and Sex Work is normalized (eg. Thailand and Japan by infidelity rates), sex work was not the cause of a TFR drop - it was government mandated family planning drives along with rising incomes. People will be horny, but blaming the tools is the same as yelling at trees while ignoring the forest.

copx 2y ago
A prostitute is not a companion, not a replacement for a partner. While the AI sexbot in question would simulate your ideal partner for you i.e. not just satisfy your sexual desires but also other emotional needs normally satisfied by a partner.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  It's a lossy comparison but the whole point is a consumer is generating a parasocial relationship, partially physical but also partially emotional. There's a reason I explicitly called out Japan and Thailand, as host/hostess bars are normalized in society there, and are used for the emotional needs aspect. All you wrote is a weird screed in favor of eugenics.
  - copx 2y ago
    My point was that it does not matter whether I (or anyone else) support eugenics or not. Once the ability is there certain regimes will use it, and the states who dont will not be able to compete. And do seriously doubt the Chinese will do it? This is not a moral / ideological question for me. Opposing genetic engineering is like opposing firearms with arguments like "We should fight man against man, sword in hand, a true test of strength, firearms are for weak cowards!" The firearm user will listen to that pontification and then just shoot you, like Indiana Jones in that movie. There simply won't be a choice. Genius level intellects like von Neumann or Einstein are such massive force multipliers that the US will look like Swaziland by comparison once China has figured out how to mass produce them.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      > And do seriously doubt the Chinese will do it I do not, but there are A LOT of unsolved problems in the Life Sciences space before we can even attempt cloning. We can't even regenerate bone yet without a biological graft, let alone multicellular organisms. This is just techno-millenarianism like I mentioned in the other thread. Great thought experiments (and I am in a bit of a sci-fi binge rn) but not applicable when there are more tangible issues to deal with. > Genius level intellects like von Neumann or Einstein are such massive force multipliers The Ubermensch model of innovation is not how reality actually works. Einstein was able to do what he did because he was born in a middle class Swiss family. If he was born in rural Ukraine, Poland, or Belarus (like most Ashkenazi like him were at the time) he'd have died either from child mortality or a pogrom like in Odessa 1881. Who knows how many Einstein or von Neumanns have existed because they were not given the opportunity to reach their maximum potential. This cannot be resolved by eugenics anyhow.

kibwen 2y ago

Despotic regimes absolutely do not want every citizen to be a Von Neumann. State-sponsored designer babies of the future will be bred for obedience, not intelligence.

copx 2y ago
I think you have the wrong idea about the effect of intelligence on political attitudes. Almost all the people who signed the Wannsee Protocol, which established the Final Solution (to the Jewish Question) had the German equivalent of PhDs, and all the way back in Ancient Greece Plato wrote down the first conception of a totalitarian regime when he wrote about his ideal state in The Republic. Highly intelligent people tend to have a fetish for order and (assumed) rationalility, which leads to support for an authoritarian state. Because if you give people individual freedom and civil rights you will end up with a lot of disorderly conduct and irrational behavior in your society (see the US). Unsurprisingly the PRC does not have the problem that its intellectual elite is opposed to the ruling regime. And I do not see the intellectual elites in the West being strong supporters of personal liberties (like freedom of speech..) either.
- kibwen 2y ago
  This is beside the point. It's not that smart people aren't capable of gleefully taking part in malicious or cruel acts. They certainly are. But malicious cruelty is the byproduct of a despotic regime, rather than the underlying purpose. To a despot, power is the only goal, and everything else is just a means to an end. Sure, smart people can be complicit in cruelty. But stupid people can also be complicit in cruelty, and stupid people ask fewer questions. It's the same reason we breed dogs primarily for obedience, and only secondarily for intelligence. We have no use for working dogs that use their intelligence for any purpose other than their master's. Dogs need to be only as smart as the task requires, and the rest of the time they need to be quietly docile and stay out of the way. And there's no law of the universe that says that humans can't be subject to same pressures.

rsynnott 2y ago

> However, it is only a matter of time until the industry develops sexbots which look and feel like a real human.. at that point the natural birth rate will probably drop to zero. I am _baffled_ that people actually believe this. Most people, I suspect, prefer relationships with actual conscious entities to sexy autocomplete.