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It is easier to agree with judgements that help resolve conflicts. This one aims to deliver justice to victims on both sides, but doesn't resolve the core issue

It is easier to agree with judgements that help resolve conflicts. This one aims to deliver justice to victims on both sides, but doesn't resolve the core issue, doesn't even name all parties responsible for this bloodbath. Hamas is a proxy for other players and has been using Palestinians as a human shield in their fight against Israel. The core issue in that conflict is religion. It is used to derail any attempts at resolving the situation or provide a path to peace; it is used to drape revenge in the veil of "justice" on both sides. There is no reason why both sides could not work together on resolving their issues, but religion will not allow it. Therefore, courts will be issuing judgements that only add to the feeling of injustice and won't resolve the core issue.

mardifoufs 2y ago
That's just revisionism though. The PLA had a lot of Christian Palestinians. It's just that as the conflict got more viscious, groups like Hamas started emerging and basing themselves on religion. Even then, Hamas isn't Al Qaeda. Its core is still based on Palestinian nationalism. Israel also has tons and tons religious extremism but it wouldn't be fair to say that Israel fights for religious reasons. It just comes down to an extreme and probably unsolvable fixation on the land from both sides.
- surfingdino 2y ago
  I wrote "both sides". Religion is at the core of this dispute. Why did Jews want to go back to the Holy Land and not some place else? Religion. Why does Iran want to wipe out Israel from the face of the Earth? Religion. All sides of the Palestinian conflict have strong groups of influence who base their demands on religious grounds, because when you cannot deny facts or do not want to start a long, hard road to peace and reconciliation saying "my made up deity told me so" is apparently reason good enough to start killing people.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    When your asks are things like "treat us as people equal to you" and "stop the secret police arrests and detention and torture of our children" and "give us self determination" and "stop genociding us", the world is unsurprisingly receptive to your asks. Hence, the world's current support for Palestine via the UN. Religion is a red herring here. What must be done first and foremost is Israel, the party with all the power here, treats all people equally, with equal rights. Doing so will take the wind out of the sails of Hamas. If Israel's goal is genocide, an independent investigation of Israel's actions will show that they are different*. * - An independent investigation of Israel's actions shows that they are different.
    - surfingdino 2y ago
      The extremists from both sides have to be removed from the conversation. Extremists on both sides are using religion to justify political goals and want to achieve political goals through military action. Half-measures will only result in suspension of atrocities for a brief moment while both sides re-arm. You cannot talk about what's going on without discussing Hamas' rise to power, removal of political opposition, and making preparations for an attack that resulted in what has been going on since last year. They took Palestinians hostage and used them to turn the world against Israel. How is that not genocidal? Palestinians are used in a political game for political gains. Does it justify Israel's actions? No. Does is present Hamas as a saviour of the Palestinian people? No.
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        You cannot talk about what's going on without discussing: Israel's long history of treating Palestinians unequal to Israelis; Israel's arrest, detention, and torture of Palestinian children and other civilians via secret police; denial of Palestinian self determination; Repeated attacks on Palestinian civilians before Oct7, killing thousands; and Israeli genocide of Palestinians. Each of these actions is literally inexcusable, as in there is no excuse one can come up with, which justifies any of the actions. Because of this, anyone involved in the Israeli abuse and genocide of Palestinians is as extremist, if not moreso, than those involved in the attack that killed 95% fewer innocent civilians last year. Either way, the first step is that Israel must stop treating Palestinians as half-people. It's the right thing to do, and it will take the wind out of the sails of Hamas, as well as the global condemnation of Israel. > They took Palestinians hostage and used them to turn the world against Israel. This is the gaslighting language of spousal abusers: "You made me hurt you". Israel did both those things, and is (unsuccessfully) attempting to gaslight others with abuser language, because they are abusers of Palestinians.
ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
The preliminary judgement doesn't attempt to solve the entire Israel Palestine conflict. That is a future judgement, perhaps. But, the core issue that the preliminary judgement seeks to solve is the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Palestine. There is no ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Israel, only a political one. As the International Court of Justice points out, ending this humanitarian catastrophe is the most urgent priority – even more urgent than Bibi's desire to keep it going for his own reasons. Thus, when Israel stops exploding Palestinian civilian men, women and children, stops exploding aid workers, stops blocking and exploding aid, stops destroying hospitals and patients and homes and families, stops displacing millions of civilians and takes proper responsibility for their health (Israel claims Gaza and the West Bank as theirs, after all, making Palestinians their charge), _that_ will be a time to discuss the issue of the broader conflict. But first we must stop the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilian Palestinians. tl;dr: the world ending genocide of Palestinians > Israeli political desires.

mardifoufs 2y ago

That's just revisionism though. The PLA had a lot of Christian Palestinians. It's just that as the conflict got more viscious, groups like Hamas started emerging and basing themselves on religion. Even then, Hamas isn't Al Qaeda. Its core is still based on Palestinian nationalism. Israel also has tons and tons religious extremism but it wouldn't be fair to say that Israel fights for religious reasons. It just comes down to an extreme and probably unsolvable fixation on the land from both sides.

surfingdino 2y ago
I wrote "both sides". Religion is at the core of this dispute. Why did Jews want to go back to the Holy Land and not some place else? Religion. Why does Iran want to wipe out Israel from the face of the Earth? Religion. All sides of the Palestinian conflict have strong groups of influence who base their demands on religious grounds, because when you cannot deny facts or do not want to start a long, hard road to peace and reconciliation saying "my made up deity told me so" is apparently reason good enough to start killing people.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  When your asks are things like "treat us as people equal to you" and "stop the secret police arrests and detention and torture of our children" and "give us self determination" and "stop genociding us", the world is unsurprisingly receptive to your asks. Hence, the world's current support for Palestine via the UN. Religion is a red herring here. What must be done first and foremost is Israel, the party with all the power here, treats all people equally, with equal rights. Doing so will take the wind out of the sails of Hamas. If Israel's goal is genocide, an independent investigation of Israel's actions will show that they are different*. * - An independent investigation of Israel's actions shows that they are different.
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    The extremists from both sides have to be removed from the conversation. Extremists on both sides are using religion to justify political goals and want to achieve political goals through military action. Half-measures will only result in suspension of atrocities for a brief moment while both sides re-arm. You cannot talk about what's going on without discussing Hamas' rise to power, removal of political opposition, and making preparations for an attack that resulted in what has been going on since last year. They took Palestinians hostage and used them to turn the world against Israel. How is that not genocidal? Palestinians are used in a political game for political gains. Does it justify Israel's actions? No. Does is present Hamas as a saviour of the Palestinian people? No.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      You cannot talk about what's going on without discussing: Israel's long history of treating Palestinians unequal to Israelis; Israel's arrest, detention, and torture of Palestinian children and other civilians via secret police; denial of Palestinian self determination; Repeated attacks on Palestinian civilians before Oct7, killing thousands; and Israeli genocide of Palestinians. Each of these actions is literally inexcusable, as in there is no excuse one can come up with, which justifies any of the actions. Because of this, anyone involved in the Israeli abuse and genocide of Palestinians is as extremist, if not moreso, than those involved in the attack that killed 95% fewer innocent civilians last year. Either way, the first step is that Israel must stop treating Palestinians as half-people. It's the right thing to do, and it will take the wind out of the sails of Hamas, as well as the global condemnation of Israel. > They took Palestinians hostage and used them to turn the world against Israel. This is the gaslighting language of spousal abusers: "You made me hurt you". Israel did both those things, and is (unsuccessfully) attempting to gaslight others with abuser language, because they are abusers of Palestinians.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago

The preliminary judgement doesn't attempt to solve the entire Israel Palestine conflict. That is a future judgement, perhaps. But, the core issue that the preliminary judgement seeks to solve is the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Palestine. There is no ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Israel, only a political one. As the International Court of Justice points out, ending this humanitarian catastrophe is the most urgent priority – even more urgent than Bibi's desire to keep it going for his own reasons. Thus, when Israel stops exploding Palestinian civilian men, women and children, stops exploding aid workers, stops blocking and exploding aid, stops destroying hospitals and patients and homes and families, stops displacing millions of civilians and takes proper responsibility for their health (Israel claims Gaza and the West Bank as theirs, after all, making Palestinians their charge), _that_ will be a time to discuss the issue of the broader conflict. But first we must stop the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilian Palestinians. tl;dr: the world ending genocide of Palestinians > Israeli political desires.