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Genuine response: the “wider positions on the nature of the I/P conflict” are essential to informing the situation, and cannot be divorced from the discussion.

Genuine response: the “wider positions on the nature of the I/P conflict” are essential to informing the situation, and cannot be divorced from the discussion. Israel has no ethical response because there is no ethical means by which one can maintain apartheid. History did not start on Oct 7, 2023. It’s like pondering where the line is between legitimate and illegitimate responses to the Warsaw ghetto uprising, or to Haitian revolution.

BunsanSpace 2y ago
"History did not start on Oct 7, 2023" Where should we start? When the arabs colonized the levant? or the many massacres of native jews? The wars of aggression by arabs? This conflict is awfully messy and each side has a laundry list of legitimate grievances.
- stanfordkid 2y ago
  Not really. It’s absurd to draw the line into ancient history of Arab’s colonizing the Levant. Early 1900s to 1948 are more reasonable given that people actually exist that lived in this time or at least meaningful records of history. The fact is the British/UN gave a bunch of land to people that wasn’t really theirs to give. Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) which was already a mass genocide/forced displacement). People alive today saw this happen. Watch the documentary Tantura to see some of the horrors by early Israelis (rapes, torture, killing people and feeding them their own genitals). The point is: throughout most of modern history “Israel” has been invading Palestine. The fact that the UN recognized Israel in 1949 doesn’t matter… because that recognition required mass displacement and horrors to actually materialize. Arab wars etc are a consequence of this. Sure maybe Israel won some of those. But one has to accept that the very conceptualization of Israel is rooted in genocide and displacement from the start. Many (or maybe most) states throughout history were formed this way I guess … Israel had the bad luck of doing it during a time that the human rights and morality of modernity was beginning to fully form.
  - dlubarov 2y ago
    > Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) This is very inaccurate, the actual law is described here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Law#Provisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Law#Provisions
    - runarberg 2y ago
      > 4. Referring to the Israeli Independence Day or the founding day of the country as a day of mourning. So you are not allowed to call it the Nakba, or describe it as anything but something to celebrate as long as you receive funding from the government. I don’t know how the media, libraries, schools or other institutions work in Israel, but in Iceland this would pretty much amount to a ban, as almost all media, and institutions receive at least some funding from the government, and the most important ones actually depend on it. I also find it curious how this flies in Israel’s participation in Eurovision. Russia was banned for using state media to spread misinformation. Meanwhile Israel has laws which bans their state media from recognizing previous state atrocities, and is not banned.
      - dlubarov 2y ago
        Your interpretation doesn't seem right. It is certainly permitted to use the word Nakba, and there's no requirement to celebrate anything.
      - Redoubts 2y ago
        > in Iceland this would pretty much amount to a ban, as almost all media, and institutions receive at least some funding from the government skill issue.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    How was the Nakba a genocide?
    - corimaith 2y ago
      The word "genocide" (and many other terms) means very little nowadays. Well you can tell at least the parent isn't trying to be neutral in providing history there.

BunsanSpace 2y ago

"History did not start on Oct 7, 2023" Where should we start? When the arabs colonized the levant? or the many massacres of native jews? The wars of aggression by arabs? This conflict is awfully messy and each side has a laundry list of legitimate grievances.

stanfordkid 2y ago
Not really. It’s absurd to draw the line into ancient history of Arab’s colonizing the Levant. Early 1900s to 1948 are more reasonable given that people actually exist that lived in this time or at least meaningful records of history. The fact is the British/UN gave a bunch of land to people that wasn’t really theirs to give. Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) which was already a mass genocide/forced displacement). People alive today saw this happen. Watch the documentary Tantura to see some of the horrors by early Israelis (rapes, torture, killing people and feeding them their own genitals). The point is: throughout most of modern history “Israel” has been invading Palestine. The fact that the UN recognized Israel in 1949 doesn’t matter… because that recognition required mass displacement and horrors to actually materialize. Arab wars etc are a consequence of this. Sure maybe Israel won some of those. But one has to accept that the very conceptualization of Israel is rooted in genocide and displacement from the start. Many (or maybe most) states throughout history were formed this way I guess … Israel had the bad luck of doing it during a time that the human rights and morality of modernity was beginning to fully form.
- dlubarov 2y ago
  > Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) This is very inaccurate, the actual law is described here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Law#Provisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Law#Provisions
  - runarberg 2y ago
    > 4. Referring to the Israeli Independence Day or the founding day of the country as a day of mourning. So you are not allowed to call it the Nakba, or describe it as anything but something to celebrate as long as you receive funding from the government. I don’t know how the media, libraries, schools or other institutions work in Israel, but in Iceland this would pretty much amount to a ban, as almost all media, and institutions receive at least some funding from the government, and the most important ones actually depend on it. I also find it curious how this flies in Israel’s participation in Eurovision. Russia was banned for using state media to spread misinformation. Meanwhile Israel has laws which bans their state media from recognizing previous state atrocities, and is not banned.
    - dlubarov 2y ago
      Your interpretation doesn't seem right. It is certainly permitted to use the word Nakba, and there's no requirement to celebrate anything.
    - Redoubts 2y ago
      > in Iceland this would pretty much amount to a ban, as almost all media, and institutions receive at least some funding from the government skill issue.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  How was the Nakba a genocide?
  - corimaith 2y ago
    The word "genocide" (and many other terms) means very little nowadays. Well you can tell at least the parent isn't trying to be neutral in providing history there.