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Ask HN: Linux vs. Mac vs. Windows for Programming, Deep Learning, AI, ML, DS

8 points by shivc 2y ago

Mac works out of the box but then linux has its advantages and so does windows. Which OS do you prefer and why?

tkuraku 2y ago
Linux all the way. Mac doesn't support Nvidia cards. Windows just feels sluggish compared to Linux.
- shivc 2y ago
  true true true! Linux seems to be winning and especially based on so many prompts and ads that these guys have started to add into their OS nowadays
wkat4242 2y ago
Linux for me. Mac is way too expensive especially if you want lots of RAM which you need for most AI purposes. Windows is an ad-ridden spyware fest these days and you don't have control over updates and reboots. So both Mac and Windows are non-starters for me. I played a bit with things on windows but I'd never use it for something serious. Microsoft invests a lot into their AI tooling now but I don't want to be beholden to them. I have to deal with them at work but I don't trust them. I built a Linux server for AI LLM inference with a Radeon Pro card and it was really good value for money. It took some doing to get it working especially with the lesser AMD compatibility but I saved a ton of money not buying Nvidia and it performs excellently now. Windows probably would have been easier to set up but I consider every configuration problem a learning experience and my freedom is worth more than my time. The reason the Mac is so popular is that it's the only way to get a GPU with direct access to tons of memory (up to 192GB) and it's cheaper than Nvidia dedicated AI options. But both have astronomical costs not justifiable to a hobbyist like me.
- shivc 2y ago
  That's quite an insight. I'm gravitating more towards linux especially after this copilot+ shit microsoft pulled out from the magic bag of tricks. I noticed issues with nvidia too on linux however arch seems to run things pretty smooth for me compared to other debian based distros, so probably going to go with that. I've been running arch in an nvme with an enclosure through usb c and tbh it is amazing but now considering just removing the windows drive and sticking with linux as the main driver while keeping windows in the enclosure since I do game time to time. As for mac, have had an amazing overall experience with m1 but then i got the base model since i didn't have a few extra kidneys in me to sell to afford the max lol but yes, seems like linux takes it home!
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Yeah it just took some doing getting ROCm to actually work. Installing it was easy, but getting it to work not quite so. In the end it works fine though. Ollama supports it well, but be aware that many other toolkits don't because it simply won't support CUDA. The card was really excellent value for money though. 300 euro for a Radeon Pro VII with 16TB of HBM2 memory. I run Ubuntu as it was better supported by the drivers. Not a big fan of ubuntu but it's just a server, not my daily driver.
    - shivc 2y ago
      I've had to go for a dual boot for most of my stuff as I like to work linux but tons of tools that work in windows better that I need to use for work. AMD GPUs are damn good value, in fact even AMD processors tend to pack quite an amazing punch compared to what we'd get with intel in the same price brackets. Linux all the way!
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    By the way yeah I know what you mean about Microsoft. I work heavily in AI and our company is heavily invested in Microsoft tooling. But personally I like to build everything myself. I don't like to be locked into the world according to microsoft. Especially because these guys are so annoying to deal with. They're only a supplier but they're talking to us like they're our boss. At work I put up with it but things I do for my personal benefit (like learning) I do on my own. All my coworkers were pumped up watching Microsoft Build this week, but I'm playing with ollama and making tools to make it talk to all my own systems. To me that's a much better way of really understanding how things work, to touch the nuts & bolts myself, not to outsource the difficult parts. I also hate classroom trainings (or online), I just don't have patience for that shit.
ActorNightly 2y ago
You should phrase your question better. " for Programming, Deep Learning, AI, ML, DS", is incredibly generic and encompasses a whole shitload of things. I mean, I prefer windows because it lets me run all software, from everything linux (including graphical apps) under WSL2 to all the windows specific software like CAD and DJ software. But if for example you wanted to train llm models in any reasonable time, you need to spend some dough on a dual 4090 (or upcoming 5090) setup at a minimum, which will likely just be a linux server that you ssh into from a different machine (cause you don't want to use the graphics cards for rendering).
- shivc 2y ago
  Good point, my bad. Yea, if I want to train models I'd definitely need to start saving up "yesterday" lol SSH into the machine seems like the best idea for AI, and as a daily driver I guess a dual boot/one internal nvme and one in an enclosure with windows and linux seems like a good option for now to keep all options open.
cpach 2y ago
Question to OP: What do you see as the primary benefits of Linux compared to macOS? Do you ever feel that you would miss a broader selection of proprietary applications? If I switched back to Linux again (after eleven years) I think I would miss nice Mac applikations, like the Acorn image editor. But maybe these days there are not too many applications that I would not find a good alternative for.
leejoramo 2y ago
The software you create will typically run on systems that are very different from your workstation. The systems your software actually runs on will typically either be much more or less powerful. Compare a large data center or embedded audino to system on which you type code. Therefore my answer is use the Software and OS that you are most productive as a Programmer for your development system, and consider the deployment environment separately. -- Now my personal answer... I have used computers since the early 80s, and a professional programmer since the mid-90s. I have used many operation systems over the years: TRS-DOS, MS-DOS, CP/M, OS/2, Solaris, etc. Today, I spend time daily using: Linux, Windows and Mac. * My primary workstation is KDE Neon on Ubuntu * macOS for mobile work and my personal life * Windows mostly for SQL Server and Active Directory * Multiple Linux Distributions and Windows for Servers While I like KDE very much and it is what I use for current my job, I am personally MOST productive doing Development work when using macOS as my Desktop Environment and Linux as my servers. I highly customize my Desktop Environment to fit my way of working. I find that macOS is the most customizable for me, followed by KDE. Windows unfortunately is a distant third. (For some added context, my basic AutoHotKey file for Windows is over 1000 lines long, so I am very familiar with how to customize Windows.) I like macOS because nearly everything I could want runs on it, my Unix-style tools, highly polished GUI apps, MS Office, Adobe, (or the many better alternatives from small developers). I also really like Apple hardware, especially MacBooks for notebooks. My high-end Dell Workstations are great, but I vastly prefer MacBooks for on-the-go. Some people find benefit from running their Workstation on the same OS as their Servers. This can be a big factor for you. For me, I am deploying to Windows, Redhat-style or Debian-style Linux. I find the difference between Redhat and Debian to be about as significant as macOS's BSD. So I don't get an advantage of running one system. I write a lot of code that never runs on my Developer system, but only on the various deployment environments. For servers, I highly recommend using the stack recommended by your selected technologies. This tends to mean you will be running multiple server environments. If you are asking this question, with some thought to limited funds, I would consider what are the advantages to you personally for a Linux Desktop Workstation vs a MacBook. Hopefully I have given you some useful food for thought. And much success you your endeavors.
- shivc 2y ago
  Damn, this is really really helpful! I do have an m1 macbook pro which tends to handle all that I need to throw at it at this point in time and works pretty well out of the box. However for certain other things I've been inclining more and more towards Linux especially as Windows experience is dwindling although tbh I think W11 is a big step up from what windows has offered in the past. But then again with some touch in cybersec etc I think my bias for at least personal work, studies and running DS stuff I do prefer Linux, Arch primarily with KDE. But I haven't gotten rid of Windows and plus since my work more or less requires it I don't think I will do anyways, as you said - all comes down to the recommended tech stack by the development environment itself.

8 points by shivc 2y ago

Mac works out of the box but then linux has its advantages and so does windows. Which OS do you prefer and why?

tkuraku 2y ago

Linux all the way. Mac doesn't support Nvidia cards. Windows just feels sluggish compared to Linux.

shivc 2y ago
true true true! Linux seems to be winning and especially based on so many prompts and ads that these guys have started to add into their OS nowadays

wkat4242 2y ago

Linux for me. Mac is way too expensive especially if you want lots of RAM which you need for most AI purposes. Windows is an ad-ridden spyware fest these days and you don't have control over updates and reboots. So both Mac and Windows are non-starters for me. I played a bit with things on windows but I'd never use it for something serious. Microsoft invests a lot into their AI tooling now but I don't want to be beholden to them. I have to deal with them at work but I don't trust them. I built a Linux server for AI LLM inference with a Radeon Pro card and it was really good value for money. It took some doing to get it working especially with the lesser AMD compatibility but I saved a ton of money not buying Nvidia and it performs excellently now. Windows probably would have been easier to set up but I consider every configuration problem a learning experience and my freedom is worth more than my time. The reason the Mac is so popular is that it's the only way to get a GPU with direct access to tons of memory (up to 192GB) and it's cheaper than Nvidia dedicated AI options. But both have astronomical costs not justifiable to a hobbyist like me.

shivc 2y ago
That's quite an insight. I'm gravitating more towards linux especially after this copilot+ shit microsoft pulled out from the magic bag of tricks. I noticed issues with nvidia too on linux however arch seems to run things pretty smooth for me compared to other debian based distros, so probably going to go with that. I've been running arch in an nvme with an enclosure through usb c and tbh it is amazing but now considering just removing the windows drive and sticking with linux as the main driver while keeping windows in the enclosure since I do game time to time. As for mac, have had an amazing overall experience with m1 but then i got the base model since i didn't have a few extra kidneys in me to sell to afford the max lol but yes, seems like linux takes it home!
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Yeah it just took some doing getting ROCm to actually work. Installing it was easy, but getting it to work not quite so. In the end it works fine though. Ollama supports it well, but be aware that many other toolkits don't because it simply won't support CUDA. The card was really excellent value for money though. 300 euro for a Radeon Pro VII with 16TB of HBM2 memory. I run Ubuntu as it was better supported by the drivers. Not a big fan of ubuntu but it's just a server, not my daily driver.
  - shivc 2y ago
    I've had to go for a dual boot for most of my stuff as I like to work linux but tons of tools that work in windows better that I need to use for work. AMD GPUs are damn good value, in fact even AMD processors tend to pack quite an amazing punch compared to what we'd get with intel in the same price brackets. Linux all the way!
- wkat4242 2y ago
  By the way yeah I know what you mean about Microsoft. I work heavily in AI and our company is heavily invested in Microsoft tooling. But personally I like to build everything myself. I don't like to be locked into the world according to microsoft. Especially because these guys are so annoying to deal with. They're only a supplier but they're talking to us like they're our boss. At work I put up with it but things I do for my personal benefit (like learning) I do on my own. All my coworkers were pumped up watching Microsoft Build this week, but I'm playing with ollama and making tools to make it talk to all my own systems. To me that's a much better way of really understanding how things work, to touch the nuts & bolts myself, not to outsource the difficult parts. I also hate classroom trainings (or online), I just don't have patience for that shit.

ActorNightly 2y ago

You should phrase your question better. " for Programming, Deep Learning, AI, ML, DS", is incredibly generic and encompasses a whole shitload of things. I mean, I prefer windows because it lets me run all software, from everything linux (including graphical apps) under WSL2 to all the windows specific software like CAD and DJ software. But if for example you wanted to train llm models in any reasonable time, you need to spend some dough on a dual 4090 (or upcoming 5090) setup at a minimum, which will likely just be a linux server that you ssh into from a different machine (cause you don't want to use the graphics cards for rendering).

shivc 2y ago
Good point, my bad. Yea, if I want to train models I'd definitely need to start saving up "yesterday" lol SSH into the machine seems like the best idea for AI, and as a daily driver I guess a dual boot/one internal nvme and one in an enclosure with windows and linux seems like a good option for now to keep all options open.

cpach 2y ago

Question to OP: What do you see as the primary benefits of Linux compared to macOS? Do you ever feel that you would miss a broader selection of proprietary applications? If I switched back to Linux again (after eleven years) I think I would miss nice Mac applikations, like the Acorn image editor. But maybe these days there are not too many applications that I would not find a good alternative for.

leejoramo 2y ago

The software you create will typically run on systems that are very different from your workstation. The systems your software actually runs on will typically either be much more or less powerful. Compare a large data center or embedded audino to system on which you type code. Therefore my answer is use the Software and OS that you are most productive as a Programmer for your development system, and consider the deployment environment separately. -- Now my personal answer... I have used computers since the early 80s, and a professional programmer since the mid-90s. I have used many operation systems over the years: TRS-DOS, MS-DOS, CP/M, OS/2, Solaris, etc. Today, I spend time daily using: Linux, Windows and Mac. * My primary workstation is KDE Neon on Ubuntu * macOS for mobile work and my personal life * Windows mostly for SQL Server and Active Directory * Multiple Linux Distributions and Windows for Servers While I like KDE very much and it is what I use for current my job, I am personally MOST productive doing Development work when using macOS as my Desktop Environment and Linux as my servers. I highly customize my Desktop Environment to fit my way of working. I find that macOS is the most customizable for me, followed by KDE. Windows unfortunately is a distant third. (For some added context, my basic AutoHotKey file for Windows is over 1000 lines long, so I am very familiar with how to customize Windows.) I like macOS because nearly everything I could want runs on it, my Unix-style tools, highly polished GUI apps, MS Office, Adobe, (or the many better alternatives from small developers). I also really like Apple hardware, especially MacBooks for notebooks. My high-end Dell Workstations are great, but I vastly prefer MacBooks for on-the-go. Some people find benefit from running their Workstation on the same OS as their Servers. This can be a big factor for you. For me, I am deploying to Windows, Redhat-style or Debian-style Linux. I find the difference between Redhat and Debian to be about as significant as macOS's BSD. So I don't get an advantage of running one system. I write a lot of code that never runs on my Developer system, but only on the various deployment environments. For servers, I highly recommend using the stack recommended by your selected technologies. This tends to mean you will be running multiple server environments. If you are asking this question, with some thought to limited funds, I would consider what are the advantages to you personally for a Linux Desktop Workstation vs a MacBook. Hopefully I have given you some useful food for thought. And much success you your endeavors.

shivc 2y ago
Damn, this is really really helpful! I do have an m1 macbook pro which tends to handle all that I need to throw at it at this point in time and works pretty well out of the box. However for certain other things I've been inclining more and more towards Linux especially as Windows experience is dwindling although tbh I think W11 is a big step up from what windows has offered in the past. But then again with some touch in cybersec etc I think my bias for at least personal work, studies and running DS stuff I do prefer Linux, Arch primarily with KDE. But I haven't gotten rid of Windows and plus since my work more or less requires it I don't think I will do anyways, as you said - all comes down to the recommended tech stack by the development environment itself.