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> We observed +5% of renewable energy production worldwide “The amount of renewable energy capacity added to energy systems around the world grew by 50% in 202

> We observed +5% of renewable energy production worldwide “The amount of renewable energy capacity added to energy systems around the world grew by 50% in 2023, reaching almost 510 gigawatts (GW), with solar PV accounting for three-quarters of additions worldwide, according to Renewables 2023” https://www.iea.org/news/massive-expansion-of-renewable-power-opens-door-to-achieving-global-tripling-goal-set-at-cop28 https://www.iea.org/news/massive-expansion-of-renewable-powe...

XorNot 2y ago
A sector can grow by 50% and still be a small fraction of the overall mix. This is in fact the common problem with growth figures: going from 0 to 1 unit is literally infinity % growth, going from 1 to 2 at the same rate is 100%, but 1 to 3 is now only 50% etc... But you've also got the problem that capacity versus production is important to renewable energy in a way which doesn't apply the same to fossil fuels. Build a 1GW thermal power plant, you'll get about 0.8GW across the year. Build a 1GW solar plant, you'll get 0.1 - 0.25 GW across the year. But in terms of capacity you theoretically have 1GW, and at times on any given day, will.
- Retric 2y ago
  Wind and solar supplied 12% of global electricity in 2022 up from 10% in 2021 and things are still accelerating. You can’t keep this kind of growth rate up for long before things change. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/12/wind-and-solar-generated-a-record-amount-of-global-power-in-2022.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/12/wind-and-solar-generated-a-r... Your capacity factor numbers are also off ex: 29.7% capacity factor averaged over 3 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Signal_Solar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Signal_Solar. Thermal is also much lower than your suggesting. China the world’s #1 coal consumer has capacity factors under 50% because they are using them for load following. France’s nuclear averaged ~70% for years for similar reasons. It’s only where the there’s excess natural gas and minimal solar/wind that thermal can keep high capacity factors but that’s becoming rare.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    Grabbing one specific solar install and saying it's representative of all solar is absurd. If I take my rooftop solar in Sydney and generalize then I'd be saying it's 12.5%. If I go by the CSIRO estimates[1] then that range is a reasonable middle for Australia (generally considered a sunny country) and would be optimistic for somewhere like Germany[2]. You're also misrepresenting capacity factors for thermal power plants: a thermal powerplant used to follow load operates below it's maximum capacity factor. Renewables can't follow load - capacity factor is the best they can do. [1] https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/GenCost https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/Gen... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany
    - Retric 2y ago
      I’m saying your range was incorrect and it only takes one example to show that. But here’s another 32.3% using single axes tracking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesquite_Solar_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesquite_Solar_project. I can go over 35%, but the point’s clear. In the real world roughly half of grid scale solar power is generated from plants over 25% capacity factors and sub 15% is mostly just outdated solar thermal or very poor locations only in use because of subsidies. https://emp.lbl.gov/pv-capacity-factors https://emp.lbl.gov/pv-capacity-factors Thermal power plants pay for fuel and therefore real world capacity factors are lower as renewable generation increases. I could point to many coal power plants in the 40-50% range, but that feels pointless. Anyway, rooftop solar isn’t representative of the grid scale solar because it’s doesn’t use ideal angles for the latitude let alone 1 or 2 axis tracking. It’s also frequently shaded by trees etc. People trying to make money selling at wholesale prices just care more about efficiency than someone offsetting retail electricity rates.
      - XorNot 2y ago
        You are still not getting it. If someone says "we installed 1GW of capacity" then what does that mean? It means you've either got 1GW of dispatchable generation on hand, or some proportionally much smaller amount of non-dispatchable generation on hand. The number doesn't mean anything without correct context which was the entire point. But "dispatchable" is key. Choosing to run a thermal powerplant at lower output due to market conditions is different to literally being unable to generate energy. So talking about "X increase in renewables" doesn't tell you a thing, which was the entire point I was making. If you build 100GW of solar then in temperate Australian regions it's actually like having 25, in Germany it's like having 10, and in the California desert I guess you maybe get 40. What you don't get, is 100GW on demand. And overnight you get zero. All of which has a pretty substantial effect on whether "installed capacity" can move the needle on total CO2 emissions because the effect on grid production is much less linear then traditional thermal power plants.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  This logic does apply to fossil fuels because fossil fuel plants cannot compete on cost with renewables when they’re running at full capacity. In terms of actual production, many fossil fuel plants are running at lower than their potential production.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    That's the entire point: a proportional increase in renewables isn't a 1:1 reduction in thermals. You don't replace 1GW of thermal plant capacity with 1GW of solar. You replace some fraction of its output, but it still runs overnight, or at times of low production or whatever. So installed capacity increasing doesn't directly tell you much about the future composition of the grid, particularly in the absence of significant storage or overnight capable sources like wind (which after still variable).
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      Well, sort of. You’re likely going to use 100% of possible production for wind and solar. That’s much lower than “capacity”, true. But you’re going to use it. Fossil fuel sources on the other hand are being rapidly downscaled. And if it’s not operationally profitable to run a gas plant at reduced capacity, the plant will have to shut down entirely. This is happening to peaker plants due to battery power coming online. the economics of gas plants become much, much worse quickly. The cost of energy from a gas plant that’s run a small portion of its planned output is much higher due to the fixed costs. This should push up the price of off-renewable time power, which will increase the business case for batteries. It’s a bit of a death loop. Gas will be here for a long time yet but I predict mainstream forecasts are underestimating how quickly the tides will turn to the share of renewables
deleted 2y ago
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passwordoops 2y ago
Meaning it increased from 3.3% to 5% in 2023?
lolinder 2y ago
For some reason that I don't understand, the IEA mostly reports the amount of capacity added to energy systems per year and the changes in that amount. So that 50% number isn't the growth rate of solar PV energy capacity, it's the growth rate of the growth rate. OP is talking about the growth rate of the percentage of the system that is solar. It's the equivalent of if they identified something's velocity and you tried to contradict them by pointing to its acceleration.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Probably because the base is changing fast enough that it’s hard to compare percentages of the total population over time. Geometric growth is kind of hard to follow.
logtempo 2y ago
which mean we can produce close to 3000T of steel in a year with renewable. (1,888 millions tons were produced in a year). The 5% is for all electric sources. I don't look at renewable only but any sources (and coil&gas makes a solid 60% of it).

XorNot 2y ago

A sector can grow by 50% and still be a small fraction of the overall mix. This is in fact the common problem with growth figures: going from 0 to 1 unit is literally infinity % growth, going from 1 to 2 at the same rate is 100%, but 1 to 3 is now only 50% etc... But you've also got the problem that capacity versus production is important to renewable energy in a way which doesn't apply the same to fossil fuels. Build a 1GW thermal power plant, you'll get about 0.8GW across the year. Build a 1GW solar plant, you'll get 0.1 - 0.25 GW across the year. But in terms of capacity you theoretically have 1GW, and at times on any given day, will.

Retric 2y ago
Wind and solar supplied 12% of global electricity in 2022 up from 10% in 2021 and things are still accelerating. You can’t keep this kind of growth rate up for long before things change. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/12/wind-and-solar-generated-a-record-amount-of-global-power-in-2022.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/12/wind-and-solar-generated-a-r... Your capacity factor numbers are also off ex: 29.7% capacity factor averaged over 3 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Signal_Solar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Signal_Solar. Thermal is also much lower than your suggesting. China the world’s #1 coal consumer has capacity factors under 50% because they are using them for load following. France’s nuclear averaged ~70% for years for similar reasons. It’s only where the there’s excess natural gas and minimal solar/wind that thermal can keep high capacity factors but that’s becoming rare.
- XorNot 2y ago
  Grabbing one specific solar install and saying it's representative of all solar is absurd. If I take my rooftop solar in Sydney and generalize then I'd be saying it's 12.5%. If I go by the CSIRO estimates[1] then that range is a reasonable middle for Australia (generally considered a sunny country) and would be optimistic for somewhere like Germany[2]. You're also misrepresenting capacity factors for thermal power plants: a thermal powerplant used to follow load operates below it's maximum capacity factor. Renewables can't follow load - capacity factor is the best they can do. [1] https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/GenCost https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/Gen... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany
  - Retric 2y ago
    I’m saying your range was incorrect and it only takes one example to show that. But here’s another 32.3% using single axes tracking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesquite_Solar_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesquite_Solar_project. I can go over 35%, but the point’s clear. In the real world roughly half of grid scale solar power is generated from plants over 25% capacity factors and sub 15% is mostly just outdated solar thermal or very poor locations only in use because of subsidies. https://emp.lbl.gov/pv-capacity-factors https://emp.lbl.gov/pv-capacity-factors Thermal power plants pay for fuel and therefore real world capacity factors are lower as renewable generation increases. I could point to many coal power plants in the 40-50% range, but that feels pointless. Anyway, rooftop solar isn’t representative of the grid scale solar because it’s doesn’t use ideal angles for the latitude let alone 1 or 2 axis tracking. It’s also frequently shaded by trees etc. People trying to make money selling at wholesale prices just care more about efficiency than someone offsetting retail electricity rates.
    - XorNot 2y ago
      You are still not getting it. If someone says "we installed 1GW of capacity" then what does that mean? It means you've either got 1GW of dispatchable generation on hand, or some proportionally much smaller amount of non-dispatchable generation on hand. The number doesn't mean anything without correct context which was the entire point. But "dispatchable" is key. Choosing to run a thermal powerplant at lower output due to market conditions is different to literally being unable to generate energy. So talking about "X increase in renewables" doesn't tell you a thing, which was the entire point I was making. If you build 100GW of solar then in temperate Australian regions it's actually like having 25, in Germany it's like having 10, and in the California desert I guess you maybe get 40. What you don't get, is 100GW on demand. And overnight you get zero. All of which has a pretty substantial effect on whether "installed capacity" can move the needle on total CO2 emissions because the effect on grid production is much less linear then traditional thermal power plants.
jncfhnb 2y ago
This logic does apply to fossil fuels because fossil fuel plants cannot compete on cost with renewables when they’re running at full capacity. In terms of actual production, many fossil fuel plants are running at lower than their potential production.
- XorNot 2y ago
  That's the entire point: a proportional increase in renewables isn't a 1:1 reduction in thermals. You don't replace 1GW of thermal plant capacity with 1GW of solar. You replace some fraction of its output, but it still runs overnight, or at times of low production or whatever. So installed capacity increasing doesn't directly tell you much about the future composition of the grid, particularly in the absence of significant storage or overnight capable sources like wind (which after still variable).
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Well, sort of. You’re likely going to use 100% of possible production for wind and solar. That’s much lower than “capacity”, true. But you’re going to use it. Fossil fuel sources on the other hand are being rapidly downscaled. And if it’s not operationally profitable to run a gas plant at reduced capacity, the plant will have to shut down entirely. This is happening to peaker plants due to battery power coming online. the economics of gas plants become much, much worse quickly. The cost of energy from a gas plant that’s run a small portion of its planned output is much higher due to the fixed costs. This should push up the price of off-renewable time power, which will increase the business case for batteries. It’s a bit of a death loop. Gas will be here for a long time yet but I predict mainstream forecasts are underestimating how quickly the tides will turn to the share of renewables

deleted 2y ago

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passwordoops 2y ago

Meaning it increased from 3.3% to 5% in 2023?

lolinder 2y ago

For some reason that I don't understand, the IEA mostly reports the amount of capacity added to energy systems per year and the changes in that amount. So that 50% number isn't the growth rate of solar PV energy capacity, it's the growth rate of the growth rate. OP is talking about the growth rate of the percentage of the system that is solar. It's the equivalent of if they identified something's velocity and you tried to contradict them by pointing to its acceleration.

jncfhnb 2y ago
Probably because the base is changing fast enough that it’s hard to compare percentages of the total population over time. Geometric growth is kind of hard to follow.

logtempo 2y ago

which mean we can produce close to 3000T of steel in a year with renewable. (1,888 millions tons were produced in a year). The 5% is for all electric sources. I don't look at renewable only but any sources (and coil&gas makes a solid 60% of it).