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The elephant in the room to answer the 'why' is that fossil fuels were already working and it took vision to see beyond them and the massive subsidies they get.

The elephant in the room to answer the 'why' is that fossil fuels were already working and it took vision to see beyond them and the massive subsidies they get. When vision was available (Jimmy Carter and solar panels on the White House comes to mind) the people without vision, or people that understood how to make a buck today at the expense of tomorrow, put up roadblocks (Regan tearing them down...). The technology, because it is massively better, eventually caught up and passed fossil fuels (yes I am talking in the past tense) which has finally made it easy to see even without vision and finally made it able for people to make a buck today. Nothing has structurally changed that would have allowed us to make different choices in the 70s. We are only, finally, now seeing the solar wave because the same forces are at play now as then. This means we haven't learned anything and will do (are doing?) this again with other technologies and issues. The real question we should be asking ourselves is how to prevent this disastrous pattern from happening again and again. There is no point moaning that solar took so long to happen and there isn't a point to blaming 'big oil' since they will soon be replaced with ? (Big Tech? Big Solar? Big Ag? Big Space?). What are -actual- concrete changes can be made to avoid this type of mess in the future?

jfengel 2y ago
Avoid? A few years ago there were memes about how the problem with zombie movies is that they never showed people running out to get zombified. Whatever kind of big mess we create in the future I guarantee we will find ways to make it worse rather than better. The US is preparing to elect a climate denialist to its highest office. This can't be fixed. It's not just some big corporate culprit. It's us. It's not all of us, but it's enough.
- leashless 2y ago
  well said. "A few years ago there were memes about how the problem with zombie movies is that they never showed people running out to get zombified." I laughed far too hard at this, in the context of the upcoming bird flu pandemic.
jonathankoren 2y ago
Not to be a complete pessimist, but there was an active disinformation campaign, not dissimilar to the tobacco companies lying about cancer rates going on. Mix in useful idiots and as Upton Sinclair pointed out, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it," and you've got decades of outright denial and obstruction. The only choice is out organize and take direct action, because elections simply aren't enough. https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/fossil_fuel_report1.pdf https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/fossil_fuel_repo...
leashless 2y ago
Campaign finance reform: Lessig's "Lesterland" springs to mind.
- jmward01 2y ago
  I think ideas like campaign finance reform are in the right direction, but how do we actually accomplish that? The people that can do it are the people blocking it because it isn't in their interests. How do you get the country to a place where this is possible? My top 'if only' (after you remove campaign finance reform) are: - Some form of ranked choice voting. - Fixing gerrymandering. Of those I think ranked choice has some momentum and could lead to positive change. Gerrymandering is, again, an issue with the people that can change it won't because it is against their interests.
  - leashless 2y ago
    How does a corrupt society become less corrupt? https://web.archive.org/web/20200428230447/https://northatlanticbooks.com/blog/of-warlords-and-rodeos-why-nothing-works/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200428230447/https://northatla... I used to work on failed states for a living. This is what I had to say. It absolutely applies to America today too. If you really want to scare yourself, read this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7748252/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7748252/ We are out of the flight envelope for civilisation on a number of fronts right now.
    - leereeves 2y ago
      > If you really want to scare yourself, read this. That kind of alarmism (in this case about the CDC failing during the pandemic) is scary, but needlessly so, and best avoided. In contrast, according to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_by_country#covid-19-pandemic-cases-and-mortality-by-country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_... The US death rate, at 3500 per million, was not much worse than the UK (3400 per million) or EU (2800 per million).
      - 2y ago
AndrewKemendo 2y ago
There’s only one answer: Every single person has to start taking as much responsibility and ownership for the communities that they live and work in as they can and support others who are doing the same It’s exceptionally simple and it’s exceptionally difficult to the same time. It’s up to you and your mental state and how you view the world, and your ability to overcome your own fears
- malfist 2y ago
  How does me taking responsibility and ownership for my neighborhood spur investment in alternative energy sources?
  - AndrewKemendo 2y ago
    Specifically, I mean, is this a is this a real question? Are you unaware of the processes of community organization and lobbying? Do you know how canvassing and petitioning work? This is precisely my point, is that these are all thoroughly documented, easy to understand and easy to implement technically, things that you do in order to be part of the community as a group of people who have a voice The key thing lacking is people who give a shit about results that don’t only benefit them and take a lot of work and coordination to do So as a result, people throw their hands up and say it’s too hard. It takes too long. It’s too complicated. The results are too obscure. It’s too unlikely… whatever whatever you can continue to come up with whatever excuses you want to not engage in your community but at the end of the day, it’s up to whether or not you care.
    - malfist 2y ago
      Lobbying congress is so far beyond the remit of "taking responsibility for your neighborhood" it's hard to believe your not being factitious.
      - AndrewKemendo 2y ago
        Like this is literally the first step in the process. You’re supposed to be able to go to your congressional representative and local councils for your specific input. They have a entire staff and they have a process to do this. I have regularly engaged with my elected congressional representatives and my local city Council members at every step along my life to lobby them for things I want. When I was in high school, I lobbied the Webster, TX city Council to build a skate park because we didn’t have one in the 90s. Now there’s a Webster skate park I was elected to the planning board for the city of Cheverly, Maryland where we took citizen input every month and then at our quarterly review meeting so that we could determine what kind of new development would happen in our town I did all of this while raising three kids and having a full-time job, including getting up at night to change diapers and all of that and I even ran ultramarathons in there too, and started a business The fact that you think that it takes some huge effort shows how broken our system is
opo 2y ago
>When vision was available (Jimmy Carter and solar panels on the White House comes to mind) ... The panels installed on the White House were not photovoltaic solar panels - they were solar water heater panels. >...(Regan tearing them down...). The panels had to be removed due to roof repairs that had to be made. Solar water heaters were probably never a good match for the needs of the west wing. I think the Bush administration added solar water heaters for a pool, which seems more reasonable.
- jmward01 2y ago
  This article[1] is like a bit biased, but I think it adds the right context with quotes from those involved. The key paragraph here: Curiously — and this may say it all — the Reagan administration also allowed Carter’s financial incentives promoting renewables to expire around the time that the panels were removed. Tax credits established in 1977 for homeowners installing solar water heaters ended Dec. 31, 1985, just months before the White House roof coup d’état. [1] https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/02/the-forgotten-story-of-jimmy-carters-white-house-solar-panels/ https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/02/the-forgotten-sto...
tim333 2y ago
>fossil fuels...the massive subsidies they get. This is basically a fiction put out by green types who aren't good at accounting, if by subsidy you mean money going from the government of the country to the fuel industries. I mean you can argue they are undertaxed and don't pay enough to cover their externalities but still the cash flows from oil companies to the government, not the other way. Oil industries are popular with politicians because they fill their coffers with cash. Solar electric on the other hand usually requires money to go the other way to subsidise your roof panels or what have you. Hence the popularity of oil and gas with some politicians and voters who pay the taxes.

jfengel 2y ago

Avoid? A few years ago there were memes about how the problem with zombie movies is that they never showed people running out to get zombified. Whatever kind of big mess we create in the future I guarantee we will find ways to make it worse rather than better. The US is preparing to elect a climate denialist to its highest office. This can't be fixed. It's not just some big corporate culprit. It's us. It's not all of us, but it's enough.

leashless 2y ago
well said. "A few years ago there were memes about how the problem with zombie movies is that they never showed people running out to get zombified." I laughed far too hard at this, in the context of the upcoming bird flu pandemic.

jonathankoren 2y ago

Not to be a complete pessimist, but there was an active disinformation campaign, not dissimilar to the tobacco companies lying about cancer rates going on. Mix in useful idiots and as Upton Sinclair pointed out, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it," and you've got decades of outright denial and obstruction. The only choice is out organize and take direct action, because elections simply aren't enough. https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/fossil_fuel_report1.pdf https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/fossil_fuel_repo...

leashless 2y ago

Campaign finance reform: Lessig's "Lesterland" springs to mind.

jmward01 2y ago
I think ideas like campaign finance reform are in the right direction, but how do we actually accomplish that? The people that can do it are the people blocking it because it isn't in their interests. How do you get the country to a place where this is possible? My top 'if only' (after you remove campaign finance reform) are: - Some form of ranked choice voting. - Fixing gerrymandering. Of those I think ranked choice has some momentum and could lead to positive change. Gerrymandering is, again, an issue with the people that can change it won't because it is against their interests.
- leashless 2y ago
  How does a corrupt society become less corrupt? https://web.archive.org/web/20200428230447/https://northatlanticbooks.com/blog/of-warlords-and-rodeos-why-nothing-works/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200428230447/https://northatla... I used to work on failed states for a living. This is what I had to say. It absolutely applies to America today too. If you really want to scare yourself, read this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7748252/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7748252/ We are out of the flight envelope for civilisation on a number of fronts right now.
  - leereeves 2y ago
    > If you really want to scare yourself, read this. That kind of alarmism (in this case about the CDC failing during the pandemic) is scary, but needlessly so, and best avoided. In contrast, according to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_by_country#covid-19-pandemic-cases-and-mortality-by-country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_... The US death rate, at 3500 per million, was not much worse than the UK (3400 per million) or EU (2800 per million).
    - 2y ago

AndrewKemendo 2y ago

There’s only one answer: Every single person has to start taking as much responsibility and ownership for the communities that they live and work in as they can and support others who are doing the same It’s exceptionally simple and it’s exceptionally difficult to the same time. It’s up to you and your mental state and how you view the world, and your ability to overcome your own fears

malfist 2y ago
How does me taking responsibility and ownership for my neighborhood spur investment in alternative energy sources?
- AndrewKemendo 2y ago
  Specifically, I mean, is this a is this a real question? Are you unaware of the processes of community organization and lobbying? Do you know how canvassing and petitioning work? This is precisely my point, is that these are all thoroughly documented, easy to understand and easy to implement technically, things that you do in order to be part of the community as a group of people who have a voice The key thing lacking is people who give a shit about results that don’t only benefit them and take a lot of work and coordination to do So as a result, people throw their hands up and say it’s too hard. It takes too long. It’s too complicated. The results are too obscure. It’s too unlikely… whatever whatever you can continue to come up with whatever excuses you want to not engage in your community but at the end of the day, it’s up to whether or not you care.
  - malfist 2y ago
    Lobbying congress is so far beyond the remit of "taking responsibility for your neighborhood" it's hard to believe your not being factitious.
    - AndrewKemendo 2y ago
      Like this is literally the first step in the process. You’re supposed to be able to go to your congressional representative and local councils for your specific input. They have a entire staff and they have a process to do this. I have regularly engaged with my elected congressional representatives and my local city Council members at every step along my life to lobby them for things I want. When I was in high school, I lobbied the Webster, TX city Council to build a skate park because we didn’t have one in the 90s. Now there’s a Webster skate park I was elected to the planning board for the city of Cheverly, Maryland where we took citizen input every month and then at our quarterly review meeting so that we could determine what kind of new development would happen in our town I did all of this while raising three kids and having a full-time job, including getting up at night to change diapers and all of that and I even ran ultramarathons in there too, and started a business The fact that you think that it takes some huge effort shows how broken our system is

opo 2y ago

>When vision was available (Jimmy Carter and solar panels on the White House comes to mind) ... The panels installed on the White House were not photovoltaic solar panels - they were solar water heater panels. >...(Regan tearing them down...). The panels had to be removed due to roof repairs that had to be made. Solar water heaters were probably never a good match for the needs of the west wing. I think the Bush administration added solar water heaters for a pool, which seems more reasonable.

jmward01 2y ago
This article[1] is like a bit biased, but I think it adds the right context with quotes from those involved. The key paragraph here: Curiously — and this may say it all — the Reagan administration also allowed Carter’s financial incentives promoting renewables to expire around the time that the panels were removed. Tax credits established in 1977 for homeowners installing solar water heaters ended Dec. 31, 1985, just months before the White House roof coup d’état. [1] https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/02/the-forgotten-story-of-jimmy-carters-white-house-solar-panels/ https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/02/the-forgotten-sto...

tim333 2y ago

>fossil fuels...the massive subsidies they get. This is basically a fiction put out by green types who aren't good at accounting, if by subsidy you mean money going from the government of the country to the fuel industries. I mean you can argue they are undertaxed and don't pay enough to cover their externalities but still the cash flows from oil companies to the government, not the other way. Oil industries are popular with politicians because they fill their coffers with cash. Solar electric on the other hand usually requires money to go the other way to subsidise your roof panels or what have you. Hence the popularity of oil and gas with some politicians and voters who pay the taxes.