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> Why Russia can't win against the West Is this still true in light of the recent Ukraine events? Russia certainly isn't losing if no one's going to stand up t

by mizzao 2y ago

> Why Russia can't win against the West Is this still true in light of the recent Ukraine events? Russia certainly isn't losing if no one's going to stand up to it.

afavour 2y ago
Sort of an interesting argument, I suppose. Militarily Russia is heavily outclassed by the West. But perhaps that’s why they’re engaging in information warfare: western populations are weary of war and with sufficient prodding Russia can keep the major western powers away from their conflict. I feel like I’m playing Civilization again.
- dylan604 2y ago
  > western populations are weary of war are they? for the most part, Americans haven't really noticed apart from family and friends of service members. There's been no rationing of goods, there's been no campaigns to buy war bonds, there's essentially been no burden on the citizens. In fact, we've had multiple tax cuts and gains in the financial markets. The sheep have been well fed.
  - afavour 2y ago
    I suppose I’m speaking theoretically here. But American populations tired of Afghanistan and Iraq. The war in Ukraine does not involve US boots on the ground and thus is a very different proposition.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      I'm actually happy to hear that you claim people were tired of it, but I just had no direct experience with people discussing how they should end. It just was never discussed in any conversations this statistic of one person experienced. Now, something like current election campaign, it is discussed non-stop. It's not like there were protests like in Vietnam to end the war. So maybe my sensitivity settings were set to the extreme??
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    >there's essentially been no burden on the citizens. Unless you watch Fox News, in which case we are "wasting" hundreds of billions on Ukraine while Americans starve!!!! What's that? A bill to feed starving Americans? Why that's socialism, which is communism! 70 million Americans voted for Trump in 2020. It doesn't matter that some of them don't live in the same reality as the rest of us, because they have isolated themselves so aggressively that they will never be snapped out of it, and millions of other people are enabling their insanity for political gain. Check out Ryan McBeth on youtube for someone with experience refuting and examining Russian disinfo campaigns, and weep in fear as statements that could be trivially debunked with a look at a single wikipedia page, or like, a book of what different weapons systems look like, and realize in horror that the millions of people falling for this shit aren't just "media illiterate", but rather are so deep in the kool-aid that they explicitly trust information MORE if it has been labeled as "fake news". It's insane. We aren't handling it. The truth is literally a less effective propaganda weapon than people silo'ing themselves so thoroughly that they have CHOSEN to watch Russian propaganda outlets like RT as "news"
    - arandomusername 2y ago
      Their problem is using their tax money for a foreign country, instead of a: lowering taxes b: using it for US citizens. Your framing is disingenous. If you believe that 70 million Americans live in a different reality and have isolated themselves, well, perhaps it is you who fails to emphasize why one may have different political standing than you? The reality is, that people have different priorities when voting. If you want to talk about propaganda weapon, the strongest in the US is the Israeli one. Both candidates take huge amounts of $$$ from Israeli donors. Both candidates simp for Israel.
- Beijinger 2y ago
  Is it? The Russian jam GPS that it is useless, but their own (much newer) system can't be jammed easily. I just read an article about it. Europe has nearly no military equipment left. Russia is loosing more tanks and artillery in a month than some big countries in the EU have. The S400 is considered superior to the Patriot system. They have hypersonic missiles. And now a battle hardened army. Don't forget, western systems are heavily overpriced. I think we pay 10 times the amount for a shell than Russia does. It will take years, possibly decades, to build up military industrial capacity. Germany has ammunition for 1 day of war. Trick question: With what will they fight on the second day? Also, dont forget: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story) Germany had the best tanks in WW2. But Russia hat many T34. In insane numbers.
  - tim333 2y ago
    Russia is having quite a struggle against Ukraine with like a quarter of its population and mostly old western weapons that were on the way out. NATO with stealth fighters and the like would be quite different game. I remember the US military vs Iraq with mostly Russian gear was almost embarrassingly one sided.
    - JacobThreeThree 2y ago
      All the air defense and much of the artillery aid has been state of the art. Ukraine benefits from the massive surveillance and targeting capabilities from air and space - also state of the art. The long range missiles given have been current generation. Not to mention that cutting-edge drone based warfare has quickly become Ukraine's most effective staple. Sure, some of the tanks and IFVs are older, but overall it's not really fair to say Ukraine is mostly using old weapons or that it's fighting Russia alone. The total financial value of external aid to Ukraine per year has been rivaling Russia's total annual defense budget.
      - mellow-lake-day 2y ago
        The ATACMS missiles that Ukraine is getting are soon to be expired because they are reaching their end of life (of course they are still in production but it shows these are not the current generation) The current generation missiles "PrSMs" have not been given to Ukraine The M777 howitzers are from 40 years ago The stinger missiles have been used in the Afghanistan war Even the F-16 planes are from 30 years ago And Patriot air defense systems are several decades old So it is fair to say that Ukraine has been using mostly older weapons

by mizzao 2y ago

> Why Russia can't win against the West Is this still true in light of the recent Ukraine events? Russia certainly isn't losing if no one's going to stand up to it.

afavour 2y ago

Sort of an interesting argument, I suppose. Militarily Russia is heavily outclassed by the West. But perhaps that’s why they’re engaging in information warfare: western populations are weary of war and with sufficient prodding Russia can keep the major western powers away from their conflict. I feel like I’m playing Civilization again.

dylan604 2y ago
> western populations are weary of war are they? for the most part, Americans haven't really noticed apart from family and friends of service members. There's been no rationing of goods, there's been no campaigns to buy war bonds, there's essentially been no burden on the citizens. In fact, we've had multiple tax cuts and gains in the financial markets. The sheep have been well fed.
- afavour 2y ago
  I suppose I’m speaking theoretically here. But American populations tired of Afghanistan and Iraq. The war in Ukraine does not involve US boots on the ground and thus is a very different proposition.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    I'm actually happy to hear that you claim people were tired of it, but I just had no direct experience with people discussing how they should end. It just was never discussed in any conversations this statistic of one person experienced. Now, something like current election campaign, it is discussed non-stop. It's not like there were protests like in Vietnam to end the war. So maybe my sensitivity settings were set to the extreme??
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  >there's essentially been no burden on the citizens. Unless you watch Fox News, in which case we are "wasting" hundreds of billions on Ukraine while Americans starve!!!! What's that? A bill to feed starving Americans? Why that's socialism, which is communism! 70 million Americans voted for Trump in 2020. It doesn't matter that some of them don't live in the same reality as the rest of us, because they have isolated themselves so aggressively that they will never be snapped out of it, and millions of other people are enabling their insanity for political gain. Check out Ryan McBeth on youtube for someone with experience refuting and examining Russian disinfo campaigns, and weep in fear as statements that could be trivially debunked with a look at a single wikipedia page, or like, a book of what different weapons systems look like, and realize in horror that the millions of people falling for this shit aren't just "media illiterate", but rather are so deep in the kool-aid that they explicitly trust information MORE if it has been labeled as "fake news". It's insane. We aren't handling it. The truth is literally a less effective propaganda weapon than people silo'ing themselves so thoroughly that they have CHOSEN to watch Russian propaganda outlets like RT as "news"
  - arandomusername 2y ago
    Their problem is using their tax money for a foreign country, instead of a: lowering taxes b: using it for US citizens. Your framing is disingenous. If you believe that 70 million Americans live in a different reality and have isolated themselves, well, perhaps it is you who fails to emphasize why one may have different political standing than you? The reality is, that people have different priorities when voting. If you want to talk about propaganda weapon, the strongest in the US is the Israeli one. Both candidates take huge amounts of $$$ from Israeli donors. Both candidates simp for Israel.
Beijinger 2y ago
Is it? The Russian jam GPS that it is useless, but their own (much newer) system can't be jammed easily. I just read an article about it. Europe has nearly no military equipment left. Russia is loosing more tanks and artillery in a month than some big countries in the EU have. The S400 is considered superior to the Patriot system. They have hypersonic missiles. And now a battle hardened army. Don't forget, western systems are heavily overpriced. I think we pay 10 times the amount for a shell than Russia does. It will take years, possibly decades, to build up military industrial capacity. Germany has ammunition for 1 day of war. Trick question: With what will they fight on the second day? Also, dont forget: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story) Germany had the best tanks in WW2. But Russia hat many T34. In insane numbers.
- tim333 2y ago
  Russia is having quite a struggle against Ukraine with like a quarter of its population and mostly old western weapons that were on the way out. NATO with stealth fighters and the like would be quite different game. I remember the US military vs Iraq with mostly Russian gear was almost embarrassingly one sided.
  - JacobThreeThree 2y ago
    All the air defense and much of the artillery aid has been state of the art. Ukraine benefits from the massive surveillance and targeting capabilities from air and space - also state of the art. The long range missiles given have been current generation. Not to mention that cutting-edge drone based warfare has quickly become Ukraine's most effective staple. Sure, some of the tanks and IFVs are older, but overall it's not really fair to say Ukraine is mostly using old weapons or that it's fighting Russia alone. The total financial value of external aid to Ukraine per year has been rivaling Russia's total annual defense budget.
    - mellow-lake-day 2y ago
      The ATACMS missiles that Ukraine is getting are soon to be expired because they are reaching their end of life (of course they are still in production but it shows these are not the current generation) The current generation missiles "PrSMs" have not been given to Ukraine The M777 howitzers are from 40 years ago The stinger missiles have been used in the Afghanistan war Even the F-16 planes are from 30 years ago And Patriot air defense systems are several decades old So it is fair to say that Ukraine has been using mostly older weapons