3 ms·

We struggle to define intelligence, much less measure it. When I was at school a million years ago "smart" kids were ones who learned to read fast, did numbers

We struggle to define intelligence, much less measure it. When I was at school a million years ago "smart" kids were ones who learned to read fast, did numbers well, and had good memory recall. Then along came computers, which had perfect memory, did numbers really well. So "intelligent machines?" Obviously not, so we tweaked our measure of intelligence. Perhaps to include writing well, or learning quickly. Which, um, computers now do. But we still view the computers as "not intelligent" but I'm not sure what measure we'll use now. Something to do with art or music? Hmm, no, wait, that's no good either.... (PS schools still mostly measure numbers and memory....)

lukan 2y ago
"But we still view the computers as "not intelligent" but I'm not sure what measure we'll use now. Something to do with art or music? Hmm, no, wait, that's no good either...." We could focus on whether the student has actually understood the topic and is not just able to produce nice sounding words and some quotes about it.
- Tijdreiziger 2y ago
  How do you differentiate between a student who actually understands the topic and one who is just able to produce a convincing essay about it? More generally, how do you measure ‘actual understanding’, if not by judging the student's output?
  - lukan 2y ago
    "if not by judging the student's output" Where did I say to not do that? And someone who can produce a convincing essay usually has understood the topic (unless he copy pasted it). And when there are doubts, one can ask that student specific questions.
    - Tijdreiziger 2y ago
      > Where did I say to not do that? You asserted that the student should “not just [be] able to produce nice sounding words”. What do you suggest output is if not words (nice sounding or not)? > And someone who can produce a convincing essay usually has understood the topic (unless he copy pasted it). Then, what is the difference between a convincing essay (‘nice sounding words’) produced by a human, and similar words produced by an LLM? After all, even today, students are passing ChatGPT’s work off as their own. Does this then demonstrate understanding by the student or by ChatGPT? > And when there are doubts, one can ask that student specific questions. If an LLM can answer specific questions about a subject, does this demonstrate true understanding? If not, why not?
      - lukan 2y ago
        "If an LLM can answer specific questions about a subject, does this demonstrate true understanding? If not, why not?" If it could, I would say there is understanding. But in every area where I have expertise, I see LLMs failing my questions. Just like a bad student would, who memorized textbooks, but did not connect or process the knowledge in any way.
dotancohen 2y ago
Schools deem a child smart when that child excels at tasks that the school assigns to them. I've those tasks were simply to read and add. Then those tasks included writing and remembering. What tasks do schools demand of children today? It seems that intelligence is a term that we apply to people who consistently excel at the mental tasks assigned to them, no matter what those tasks entail.
deleted 2y ago
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LtdJorge 2y ago
Kids being smart normally means they are _more_ intelligent than the others. Computers, compared to average humans are dumb as rocks.
fmbb 2y ago
Who struggles to do what for which purpose? Sometimes the word “intelligent” is used by someone who sells IQ tests. Sometimes the word is used by someone who sells the idea of a computer that can think like a human. I don’t know if people in general struggle or care about the definition.

lukan 2y ago

"But we still view the computers as "not intelligent" but I'm not sure what measure we'll use now. Something to do with art or music? Hmm, no, wait, that's no good either...." We could focus on whether the student has actually understood the topic and is not just able to produce nice sounding words and some quotes about it.

Tijdreiziger 2y ago
How do you differentiate between a student who actually understands the topic and one who is just able to produce a convincing essay about it? More generally, how do you measure ‘actual understanding’, if not by judging the student's output?
- lukan 2y ago
  "if not by judging the student's output" Where did I say to not do that? And someone who can produce a convincing essay usually has understood the topic (unless he copy pasted it). And when there are doubts, one can ask that student specific questions.
  - Tijdreiziger 2y ago
    > Where did I say to not do that? You asserted that the student should “not just [be] able to produce nice sounding words”. What do you suggest output is if not words (nice sounding or not)? > And someone who can produce a convincing essay usually has understood the topic (unless he copy pasted it). Then, what is the difference between a convincing essay (‘nice sounding words’) produced by a human, and similar words produced by an LLM? After all, even today, students are passing ChatGPT’s work off as their own. Does this then demonstrate understanding by the student or by ChatGPT? > And when there are doubts, one can ask that student specific questions. If an LLM can answer specific questions about a subject, does this demonstrate true understanding? If not, why not?
    - lukan 2y ago
      "If an LLM can answer specific questions about a subject, does this demonstrate true understanding? If not, why not?" If it could, I would say there is understanding. But in every area where I have expertise, I see LLMs failing my questions. Just like a bad student would, who memorized textbooks, but did not connect or process the knowledge in any way.

dotancohen 2y ago

Schools deem a child smart when that child excels at tasks that the school assigns to them. I've those tasks were simply to read and add. Then those tasks included writing and remembering. What tasks do schools demand of children today? It seems that intelligence is a term that we apply to people who consistently excel at the mental tasks assigned to them, no matter what those tasks entail.

deleted 2y ago

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LtdJorge 2y ago

Kids being smart normally means they are _more_ intelligent than the others. Computers, compared to average humans are dumb as rocks.

fmbb 2y ago

Who struggles to do what for which purpose? Sometimes the word “intelligent” is used by someone who sells IQ tests. Sometimes the word is used by someone who sells the idea of a computer that can think like a human. I don’t know if people in general struggle or care about the definition.