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Or maybe the explanation is a lot simpler. Liberal democracies turned into oligarchies in much of the West in the 80s and 90s. While most of the benefits of gr

Or maybe the explanation is a lot simpler. Liberal democracies turned into oligarchies in much of the West in the 80s and 90s. While most of the benefits of growth used to go to people, now increasingly wealth is concentrated in a few hands. Or in the words of Why Nations Fail, we remade the economy into an extractive system. Lacking options and seeing that life for their children is getting increasingly more difficult and bleak people are slowly being more radicalized. They're losing faith in the traditional generators of growth like science and turning on one another. Liberal democracy can win. But we need to undo the disastrous policies that got us here.

OccamsMirror 2y ago
We elect people who are incentivized to continue these policies lest their own investment portfolios lose value. I have very little hope that we can redirect our civilization in time to save it.
thesuperbigfrog 2y ago
>> Or in the words of Why Nations Fail, we remade the economy into an extractive system. Enshittification of the economy at the bottom and "enrichification" at the top. We've seen this before many times before throughout history and it did not end well for those at the top.
- OccamsMirror 2y ago
  That's why they're pouring massive amounts of investment money into making bipedal robots. If you can control the masses without needing the masses then it no longer matters anymore. Then you can live your cyberpunk dreams at the top of the pile while Elysium style robots suppress those at the bottom.
deepfriedchokes 2y ago
Liberal democracy will never win so long as we have an economic system that creates a power imbalance. Capitalism naturally captures markets and institutions. Corruption is inevitable.
- TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
  There was communism 40 years in Eastern Block. Whole countries basically imploded in 1990s
  - M95D 2y ago
    Also because of corruption.
    - candiodari 2y ago
      This is the part of the argument that baffles me. The argument goes: liberal democracies are partially captured by capitalism (corruption, actual, but frankly part of the argument is "corruption" in the sense of "we have the right to medicine, why don't doctors/nurses/... work for the government for free? No I won't feed them from my money. How dare you ask that!") Fine. This is actually true. Money captures government. Of course, the fact that we discuss it so freely does mean something is done about it. And yet, everyone I've ever spoken who came from an autocracy, from the USSR, from Palestine, from Saudi, from China, from DRC, from South Africa, from India (tbh India is worse than Europe, but far less bad than Russia was) ... They all confirm that every one of these non-liberal states are deeply, deeply corrupt and WILL prop up corrupt companies at the expense of everyone in the country, in some cases (or "if necessary") with violence. Some have islands of fair play (essentially a few sectors of the economy the rulers really don't care about but are still needed, and thus are an actual economic opportunity), but 95-100% of the economy is corrupt. And most of these people agree that this corruption in turn causes mass poverty, which in some cases is endemic. One big theme is that all autocracies really have one purpose for all this corruption: to sabotage social mobility. Yes there is competition, usually between entire families, and one gains a bit one loses a bit, but NOBODY is allowed to switch places. That's what illiberal states are fundamentally about. Rulers remain rulers (especially in Saudi Arabia, that can go pretty damn FAR. Families whose children MUST take a job as a house servant for another family because their parents did that job. But also in China, it's about having the right families running the government. You can become the richest person among your cousins, with roughly the same amount of wealth as your richest uncle ... that's the limit. No going above it) And yes, I obviously know of deeply unfair instances of corruption, in the US, and in Europe (oil companies are pretty much guaranteed to be corrupt, including in "the west", with telecom companies usually close behind). But it just doesn't compare to these illiberal states. And social mobility, definitely in the US, and even in Europe, is far higher. So I'm baffled. Liberal capitalism is, as far as I can tell, by far the best solution to minimize corruption and maximize social mobility, both of which seem extremely desirable. It's also what these protests seem to be calling for. And yet ... every time there's demonstrations (which I understand, are part of liberal democracy and obviously part of the reason corruption remains under control) lots and lots of people call for entire countries to become illiberal. When asked they are under some sort of weird impression that socialism will make sure medicine is free, without training doctors. That housing for all will be the norm, while, of course, not building anything. That islam will mean wars end, without, of course, explaining why the conflict in, say, Sudan, isn't yet resolved.

OccamsMirror 2y ago

We elect people who are incentivized to continue these policies lest their own investment portfolios lose value. I have very little hope that we can redirect our civilization in time to save it.

thesuperbigfrog 2y ago

>> Or in the words of Why Nations Fail, we remade the economy into an extractive system. Enshittification of the economy at the bottom and "enrichification" at the top. We've seen this before many times before throughout history and it did not end well for those at the top.

OccamsMirror 2y ago
That's why they're pouring massive amounts of investment money into making bipedal robots. If you can control the masses without needing the masses then it no longer matters anymore. Then you can live your cyberpunk dreams at the top of the pile while Elysium style robots suppress those at the bottom.

deepfriedchokes 2y ago

Liberal democracy will never win so long as we have an economic system that creates a power imbalance. Capitalism naturally captures markets and institutions. Corruption is inevitable.

TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
There was communism 40 years in Eastern Block. Whole countries basically imploded in 1990s
- M95D 2y ago
  Also because of corruption.
  - candiodari 2y ago
    This is the part of the argument that baffles me. The argument goes: liberal democracies are partially captured by capitalism (corruption, actual, but frankly part of the argument is "corruption" in the sense of "we have the right to medicine, why don't doctors/nurses/... work for the government for free? No I won't feed them from my money. How dare you ask that!") Fine. This is actually true. Money captures government. Of course, the fact that we discuss it so freely does mean something is done about it. And yet, everyone I've ever spoken who came from an autocracy, from the USSR, from Palestine, from Saudi, from China, from DRC, from South Africa, from India (tbh India is worse than Europe, but far less bad than Russia was) ... They all confirm that every one of these non-liberal states are deeply, deeply corrupt and WILL prop up corrupt companies at the expense of everyone in the country, in some cases (or "if necessary") with violence. Some have islands of fair play (essentially a few sectors of the economy the rulers really don't care about but are still needed, and thus are an actual economic opportunity), but 95-100% of the economy is corrupt. And most of these people agree that this corruption in turn causes mass poverty, which in some cases is endemic. One big theme is that all autocracies really have one purpose for all this corruption: to sabotage social mobility. Yes there is competition, usually between entire families, and one gains a bit one loses a bit, but NOBODY is allowed to switch places. That's what illiberal states are fundamentally about. Rulers remain rulers (especially in Saudi Arabia, that can go pretty damn FAR. Families whose children MUST take a job as a house servant for another family because their parents did that job. But also in China, it's about having the right families running the government. You can become the richest person among your cousins, with roughly the same amount of wealth as your richest uncle ... that's the limit. No going above it) And yes, I obviously know of deeply unfair instances of corruption, in the US, and in Europe (oil companies are pretty much guaranteed to be corrupt, including in "the west", with telecom companies usually close behind). But it just doesn't compare to these illiberal states. And social mobility, definitely in the US, and even in Europe, is far higher. So I'm baffled. Liberal capitalism is, as far as I can tell, by far the best solution to minimize corruption and maximize social mobility, both of which seem extremely desirable. It's also what these protests seem to be calling for. And yet ... every time there's demonstrations (which I understand, are part of liberal democracy and obviously part of the reason corruption remains under control) lots and lots of people call for entire countries to become illiberal. When asked they are under some sort of weird impression that socialism will make sure medicine is free, without training doctors. That housing for all will be the norm, while, of course, not building anything. That islam will mean wars end, without, of course, explaining why the conflict in, say, Sudan, isn't yet resolved.