4 ms·

Ask HN: Non-Chinese Laptops?

Are there any good laptop options out there not manufactured in China? Even brands like System 76 fail this test. Looking for suggestions for devices made in the EU, USA, Canada, Japan, etc.

krasin 2y ago
Fujitsu sells 'Made in Japan' laptops. One place to buy them is Amazon Japan. For example, this one: https://www.amazon.co.jp/Official-LIFEBOOK-WU-X-H1-AZ_WUXH1_Z288/dp/B0BV63XVZG/ https://www.amazon.co.jp/Official-LIFEBOOK-WU-X-H1-AZ_WUXH1_...
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  One challenge with importing Japanese laptops is not being able to order them with a US keyboard layout, many ship exclusively with a JIS keyboard layout.
  - throwaway51081 2y ago
    I have seen local distributors add stickers on the keys. The layout is a little bit different but it's not so bad.
- solardev 2y ago
  Are they just assembled in Japan from Chinese-manufactured chips? Do Intel, AMD, etc. even manufacture outside of China anymore?
  - krasin 2y ago
    Intel factories are around the world (US, Europe, Israel, Malaysia), but none in China. See ([1]). AMD uses TSMC (Taiwan) and GlobalFoundries (USA, Europe, Singapore [2]). So, answering your narrow question: yes, these chips are manufactured outside of China. But the answer to your wider question is more complex: supply chain is so globalized that there will always be some components or subassemblies manufactured in China in any laptop, unless it's a state-sponsored multi-year effort to not have any. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries
    - solardev 2y ago
      Thank you for this info! I didn't know that, and am glad to have learned.
throwaway51081 2y ago
What about the brands that use Taiwanese ODM manufacturers like Foxconn? I think Asus is one of them. Or Samsung made in Korea.
- solardev 2y ago
  Foxconn still has factories in China. I think Asus and Acer manufacture in China these days too, don't they?
runjake 2y ago
I'd think that the Apple MacBook supply chain, for better or worse, is about the best and most widely-inspected platform. A potential downside might be that you're limited to macOS or Linux only.
- solardev 2y ago
  They're still assembled in China... says so on the bottom of mine.
  - runjake 2y ago
    Right, but my point is they’re likely the least worst option, since they have a pretty tightly-controlled supply chain and I can’t think of any viable laptops fully manufactured and assembled outside of China. I don’t think that even Fujitsu laptops meet this criteria.
- dajtxx 2y ago
  Or windows in a VM. Parallels makes that painless if you can use arm.
pestatije 2y ago
Asus and Acer, manufactured by Quanta, Compal, Wistron, Inventec, Pegatron, and Foxconn
solardev 2y ago
I wonder if government procurement/compliance rules might help here? For example the military has a Trusted Supplier program for chips: https://www.acq.osd.mil/asds/dmea/tapo/trusted-supplier-programs.html https://www.acq.osd.mil/asds/dmea/tapo/trusted-supplier-prog... There's also a government shopping site for approved "MAS IT Schedule 70" desktops and laptops: https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/ws/search/gss_search https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/ws/search/gss_search and some of those say "Made in the USA", but I'm not sure of the extent of vetting they do of those component parts. They're mostly Dell and HP machines, but those vendors might have special pipelines for getting those special USA machines...? Not sure.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  That stuff is mostly bullshit. For most products “Made in the USA” means TAA compliant, which means they are substantially transformed in the US. Translation: they attach the laptop display and hard drive in Texas, and charge 50% more.
romerocarlos 2y ago
Maybe you should see the Starlabs laptops, they are assembled, imaged and programmed in the UK. https://starlabs.systems/ https://starlabs.systems/
Spooky23 2y ago
Dell 5400 series devices are made in Vietnam. You too can own a mediocre corporate laptop.
LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
Maybe https://dynabook.com/global/en/index.html https://dynabook.com/global/en/index.html ? Though they seem old and overpriced. Not much left of Toshibas former glory. (For some models only anyway) edit: https://us.dynabook.com/ https://us.dynabook.com/
cpach 2y ago
According to this comment from 2023, most laptops are made by Taiwanese companies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36651016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36651016 I don’t know for sure, but if I read that comment correctly, those six companies are turnkey suppliers for the large computer brands.
- rl3 2y ago
  Surely there's still subcomponents made in China, even if device manufacture happens in Taiwan. Granted, it doesn't really matter from a security standpoint unless those subcomponents are ICs of some sort. Then again, there's probably some really clever ways to backdoor stuff even using "dumb" components. It'd be nice if consumers had options for end-to-end supply chain assurances though.
  - cpach 2y ago
    Yeah I’m 99,9% sure that a non-negligible part of the subcomponents are made in China. I would be extremely surprised if it was possible to find a modern personal computer with zero parts made in China. (Might be possible for embedded devices?)
onecommentman 2y ago
Sony Vaio? “Proudly Made In Japan. VAIO, and authentically Japanese manufacturer, can boast of in-house design, manufacturing and support teams. Our level of commitment to Japanese technology and aesthetics that is a hallmark of VAIO’s craftsmanship.” https://us.vaio.com/pages/why-vaio https://us.vaio.com/pages/why-vaio

Are there any good laptop options out there not manufactured in China? Even brands like System 76 fail this test. Looking for suggestions for devices made in the EU, USA, Canada, Japan, etc.

krasin 2y ago

Fujitsu sells 'Made in Japan' laptops. One place to buy them is Amazon Japan. For example, this one: https://www.amazon.co.jp/Official-LIFEBOOK-WU-X-H1-AZ_WUXH1_Z288/dp/B0BV63XVZG/ https://www.amazon.co.jp/Official-LIFEBOOK-WU-X-H1-AZ_WUXH1_...

wannacboatmovie 2y ago
One challenge with importing Japanese laptops is not being able to order them with a US keyboard layout, many ship exclusively with a JIS keyboard layout.
- throwaway51081 2y ago
  I have seen local distributors add stickers on the keys. The layout is a little bit different but it's not so bad.
solardev 2y ago
Are they just assembled in Japan from Chinese-manufactured chips? Do Intel, AMD, etc. even manufacture outside of China anymore?
- krasin 2y ago
  Intel factories are around the world (US, Europe, Israel, Malaysia), but none in China. See ([1]). AMD uses TSMC (Taiwan) and GlobalFoundries (USA, Europe, Singapore [2]). So, answering your narrow question: yes, these chips are manufactured outside of China. But the answer to your wider question is more complex: supply chain is so globalized that there will always be some components or subassemblies manufactured in China in any laptop, unless it's a state-sponsored multi-year effort to not have any. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries
  - solardev 2y ago
    Thank you for this info! I didn't know that, and am glad to have learned.

throwaway51081 2y ago

What about the brands that use Taiwanese ODM manufacturers like Foxconn? I think Asus is one of them. Or Samsung made in Korea.

solardev 2y ago
Foxconn still has factories in China. I think Asus and Acer manufacture in China these days too, don't they?

runjake 2y ago

I'd think that the Apple MacBook supply chain, for better or worse, is about the best and most widely-inspected platform. A potential downside might be that you're limited to macOS or Linux only.

solardev 2y ago
They're still assembled in China... says so on the bottom of mine.
- runjake 2y ago
  Right, but my point is they’re likely the least worst option, since they have a pretty tightly-controlled supply chain and I can’t think of any viable laptops fully manufactured and assembled outside of China. I don’t think that even Fujitsu laptops meet this criteria.
dajtxx 2y ago
Or windows in a VM. Parallels makes that painless if you can use arm.

pestatije 2y ago

Asus and Acer, manufactured by Quanta, Compal, Wistron, Inventec, Pegatron, and Foxconn

solardev 2y ago

I wonder if government procurement/compliance rules might help here? For example the military has a Trusted Supplier program for chips: https://www.acq.osd.mil/asds/dmea/tapo/trusted-supplier-programs.html https://www.acq.osd.mil/asds/dmea/tapo/trusted-supplier-prog... There's also a government shopping site for approved "MAS IT Schedule 70" desktops and laptops: https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/ws/search/gss_search https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/ws/search/gss_search and some of those say "Made in the USA", but I'm not sure of the extent of vetting they do of those component parts. They're mostly Dell and HP machines, but those vendors might have special pipelines for getting those special USA machines...? Not sure.

Spooky23 2y ago
That stuff is mostly bullshit. For most products “Made in the USA” means TAA compliant, which means they are substantially transformed in the US. Translation: they attach the laptop display and hard drive in Texas, and charge 50% more.

romerocarlos 2y ago

Maybe you should see the Starlabs laptops, they are assembled, imaged and programmed in the UK. https://starlabs.systems/ https://starlabs.systems/

Spooky23 2y ago

Dell 5400 series devices are made in Vietnam. You too can own a mediocre corporate laptop.

LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago

Maybe https://dynabook.com/global/en/index.html https://dynabook.com/global/en/index.html ? Though they seem old and overpriced. Not much left of Toshibas former glory. (For some models only anyway) edit: https://us.dynabook.com/ https://us.dynabook.com/

cpach 2y ago

According to this comment from 2023, most laptops are made by Taiwanese companies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36651016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36651016 I don’t know for sure, but if I read that comment correctly, those six companies are turnkey suppliers for the large computer brands.

rl3 2y ago
Surely there's still subcomponents made in China, even if device manufacture happens in Taiwan. Granted, it doesn't really matter from a security standpoint unless those subcomponents are ICs of some sort. Then again, there's probably some really clever ways to backdoor stuff even using "dumb" components. It'd be nice if consumers had options for end-to-end supply chain assurances though.
- cpach 2y ago
  Yeah I’m 99,9% sure that a non-negligible part of the subcomponents are made in China. I would be extremely surprised if it was possible to find a modern personal computer with zero parts made in China. (Might be possible for embedded devices?)

onecommentman 2y ago

Sony Vaio? “Proudly Made In Japan. VAIO, and authentically Japanese manufacturer, can boast of in-house design, manufacturing and support teams. Our level of commitment to Japanese technology and aesthetics that is a hallmark of VAIO’s craftsmanship.” https://us.vaio.com/pages/why-vaio https://us.vaio.com/pages/why-vaio