9 ms·

There is a growing number of cases where the salesperson will activate OnStar (or a non-GM equivalent) without asking or telling the buyer about it. As far as

by mikece 2y ago

There is a growing number of cases where the salesperson will activate OnStar (or a non-GM equivalent) without asking or telling the buyer about it. As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. Of course if you're driving in a city the proliferation of ALPRs is so pervasive that your movements are being tracked in real-time even if you're driving a 1958 Ford F-series truck.

JohnFen 2y ago
> As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. I'm not aware of any law (in the US) that prohibits you from disabling these things in a vehicle you own. Is it actually illegal?
- CivBase 2y ago
  You own the hardware. But in the modern world we do not own the software that allows us to make use of the hardware. If deactivating OnStar requires a modification to the car's software, I can definitely see how it could effectively be illegal to deactivate. In the world of modern tech, the concept of ownership is practically dead. But I don't know if a modification to the software is actually necessary or if that's what OP was getting at. Just speculating.
  - Xirgil 2y ago
    But if you own the hardware there's nothing to legally prevent you from severing the power to whatever sensors/hardware onstar is using, no?
    - sidewndr46 2y ago
      the car may not even start, or may disable virtually all functionality until the problem is fixed if you do that
    - CivBase 2y ago
      Sure. As long as the software continues to work despite whatever you broke or disabled. It all depends on how forgiving the software is and how integrated the hardware is. If manufacturers really want to collect this data, they currently have the power to stop you.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    No need to mess with the software to deactivate these things. Just yank a fuse, disconnect the antenna, or -- worst case -- physically break the support circuitry.
    - exe34 2y ago
      the issue is that eventually they'll just make the car not start without it. it's like your inkjet printer refusing to print black and white because it's run out of yellow.
      - hiatus 2y ago
        That sounds like it would have profound safety implications.
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        How so?
        hiatus 2y ago
        Turn off the car in a place without service, can't turn it back on?
        exe34 2y ago
        for just $100 per month, you can have a dedicated server connection over starlink to fetch an authorisation token start your car anywhere supported. terms and conditions apply.
        CivBase 2y ago
        Pretty hard to get into a vehicle collision if you can't start the vehicle.
        hiatus 2y ago
- ru552 2y ago
  It's not illegal, it's just that it doesn't allow it in the UI. Who do you call to have that service disabled? No one knows. The best you can do is talk to someone and have the auto renewal turned off. That doesn't turn off the existing service until the renewal period hits though.
  - nrdgrrrl 2y ago
    Surely you can find the GPS antenna and disconnect it?
    - Lammy 2y ago
      Better to replace it with an equivalent resistor so the ECU can't tell the difference between no-antenna and no-signal.
      - mordae 2y ago
        Or maybe just desolder the one capacitor between the physical antenna and LNA. Provided it's not in a can.
    - anonymousnotme 2y ago
      Is the GPS two way or one way? I had the impression that the GPS signals went from satellite to earth, but the receivers did not send a signal to the GPS satellite. I thought onstar connected the cellular network. If I have the wrong information and somebody has more specifics about this, I would really like to know. From reading the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar Looks like the cellular network is used. Is the cellular antenna and the GPS antenna the same or are there two physical antenna? If so, then I assume one can just disconnect it. Since according to the article it says 4g. Normally cellular providers discontinue old network, 2G and 3G network have been taken down in recent years. Does anybody know when 4g network will be removed/disabled? I did find: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion/4568976-how-to-disable-onstar-completely-4.html https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion/4... https://www.silveradosierra.com/threads/disable-on-star.719693/ https://www.silveradosierra.com/threads/disable-on-star.7196... If the 4g network is taken down at some point, then whatever functionality that uses it will be disabled as well. So, one would think that perhaps that part of the system should be able to be replaced. If so, can't one just remove that part of the system? It is probably hard to remove, because if it is easy, then theft system is not as good. One more thought, in California one can request a copy of one's data and also request that it be deleted. Has anybody in CA requested a copy of all the data that has been collected? How much data per month or day does it collected? Has anybody requested that their data be deleted? Would this make it difficult the manufacturer to train the driving assistance AI if enough people requested that their data be deleted?
jandrese 2y ago
What's illegal about removing the fuse for the OnStar system from your own car? Certainly the doctrine of first sale applies here?
- crmd 2y ago
  On late model Toyotas, pulling the fuse for the DCM (Data Communication Module - component that sends nonconsensual telemetry back to Toyota) also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. There is a procedure to disable the DCM and restore at least the speaker, but it involves partial disassembly of the dashboard.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    > also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. That seems like a really small price to pay, honestly. I'd just install an aftermarket stereo and call it a day. Although I understand if others think that price is too hefty. We all decide for ourselves what we're willing to put up with.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      > That seems like a really small price to pay, honestly. I'd just install an aftermarket stereo and call it a day. The vast majority of the population cannot and will not do this.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
    So disconnect the antenna, and for bonus marks connect a dummy load in its place.
    - crmd 2y ago
      There is a procedure at the link below for doing just that. You disconnect leads for the cellular main, cellular sub, and GPS antennas from the DCM, and replace them with 50 ohm terminators. This avoids error codes and check engine light, and instead leaves the transponder in a perpetual "out of range" state. https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-disabling-the-dcm-telematics-silencing-antennas.821649/ https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-dis...
Zigurd 2y ago
It looks like OnStar and other systems are on a dedicated fuse. Pulling that fuse would disable remote access to data. This would not disable onboard logging. Real location privacy on a journey would also require stashing your phone and toll box in a shielded bag and avoiding license plate readers.
- steelframe 2y ago
  You can probably just enable Airplane Mode on your phone and expect that to work fine.
  - Zigurd 2y ago
    It's been since 3G that I delved into baseband specs in any depth, but I would not trust a powered up phone not to be commanded to connect to a network.
    - adamomada 2y ago
      Couldn’t this easily be proven by monitoring transmission power from the device? There are all sorts of people who go on vacation and use the switch to avoid roaming charges. It would be plainly obvious to those people that their supposedly offline phone went online when they look at their bill. Or is there some secret apn bypass?
      - Zigurd 2y ago
        Depending on how careful you are and what equipment you've got on hand, you might be able to detect that going on, but I think "easily" is a stretch. If there is a secret involved in this it would be undocumented commands sent by the network to phones that then interpret them as commands to connect to the network, plus baseband processors the periodically look for such commands. They don't radiate, so very little power is used, but they should be entirely dormant.
      - ranger_danger 2y ago
        I ask this all the time but have yet to find anyone that has actually measured it. According to Snowden, basebands are still powered and operational even when the main application OS (android/ios/etc.) are shut down. And a non-removable battery sure doesn't help that. Plus, he also says that the baseband often has its own separate connections to the GPS, microphone and camera and can operate them without the application OS involved. If the baseband is still powered, I can only assume it is simply sending (or responding to) periodic commands that do not require network authorization, which could possibly still let the network know where you are even without involving any roaming charges.
wil421 2y ago
Next you’ll need to cover your license plate from all the Flock cameras tracking every time you leave your city/county/state.
worik 2y ago
> As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers Naively... Is it illegal to cut the power to the GPS unit? I do not see why a car needs a GPS built in. So why can I not simply disable it? What am I missing?
- jstanley 2y ago
  It's inside a complicated box that you can't reach.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Not with that attitude you can't.
    - meowster 2y ago
      Maybe you can, but what about the 99.99999% of the population that can't.
      - dgfitz 2y ago
        Why am I special? Any mod anyone would want to make to a car has a YouTube video associated with it. And for real, to borrow your number, that is true 99.99999% of the time.
  - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    That complicated box has an antenna. Disconnect (and ideally terminate) the input and no more spying.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      That often requires removing the dash and radio, and possibly voiding a warranty or lease agreement.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
moneywoes 2y ago
any more insight on alpr?
m463 2y ago
I thought there was some way the police can disable your engine via onstar.

by mikece 2y ago

JohnFen 2y ago

> As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. I'm not aware of any law (in the US) that prohibits you from disabling these things in a vehicle you own. Is it actually illegal?

CivBase 2y ago
You own the hardware. But in the modern world we do not own the software that allows us to make use of the hardware. If deactivating OnStar requires a modification to the car's software, I can definitely see how it could effectively be illegal to deactivate. In the world of modern tech, the concept of ownership is practically dead. But I don't know if a modification to the software is actually necessary or if that's what OP was getting at. Just speculating.
- Xirgil 2y ago
  But if you own the hardware there's nothing to legally prevent you from severing the power to whatever sensors/hardware onstar is using, no?
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    the car may not even start, or may disable virtually all functionality until the problem is fixed if you do that
  - CivBase 2y ago
    Sure. As long as the software continues to work despite whatever you broke or disabled. It all depends on how forgiving the software is and how integrated the hardware is. If manufacturers really want to collect this data, they currently have the power to stop you.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  No need to mess with the software to deactivate these things. Just yank a fuse, disconnect the antenna, or -- worst case -- physically break the support circuitry.
  - exe34 2y ago
    the issue is that eventually they'll just make the car not start without it. it's like your inkjet printer refusing to print black and white because it's run out of yellow.
    - hiatus 2y ago
      That sounds like it would have profound safety implications.
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        How so?
        hiatus 2y ago
        Turn off the car in a place without service, can't turn it back on?
        exe34 2y ago
        for just $100 per month, you can have a dedicated server connection over starlink to fetch an authorisation token start your car anywhere supported. terms and conditions apply.
      - CivBase 2y ago
        Pretty hard to get into a vehicle collision if you can't start the vehicle.
        hiatus 2y ago
ru552 2y ago
It's not illegal, it's just that it doesn't allow it in the UI. Who do you call to have that service disabled? No one knows. The best you can do is talk to someone and have the auto renewal turned off. That doesn't turn off the existing service until the renewal period hits though.
- nrdgrrrl 2y ago
  Surely you can find the GPS antenna and disconnect it?
  - Lammy 2y ago
    Better to replace it with an equivalent resistor so the ECU can't tell the difference between no-antenna and no-signal.
    - mordae 2y ago
      Or maybe just desolder the one capacitor between the physical antenna and LNA. Provided it's not in a can.
  - anonymousnotme 2y ago
    Is the GPS two way or one way? I had the impression that the GPS signals went from satellite to earth, but the receivers did not send a signal to the GPS satellite. I thought onstar connected the cellular network. If I have the wrong information and somebody has more specifics about this, I would really like to know. From reading the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar Looks like the cellular network is used. Is the cellular antenna and the GPS antenna the same or are there two physical antenna? If so, then I assume one can just disconnect it. Since according to the article it says 4g. Normally cellular providers discontinue old network, 2G and 3G network have been taken down in recent years. Does anybody know when 4g network will be removed/disabled? I did find: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion/4568976-how-to-disable-onstar-completely-4.html https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion/4... https://www.silveradosierra.com/threads/disable-on-star.719693/ https://www.silveradosierra.com/threads/disable-on-star.7196... If the 4g network is taken down at some point, then whatever functionality that uses it will be disabled as well. So, one would think that perhaps that part of the system should be able to be replaced. If so, can't one just remove that part of the system? It is probably hard to remove, because if it is easy, then theft system is not as good. One more thought, in California one can request a copy of one's data and also request that it be deleted. Has anybody in CA requested a copy of all the data that has been collected? How much data per month or day does it collected? Has anybody requested that their data be deleted? Would this make it difficult the manufacturer to train the driving assistance AI if enough people requested that their data be deleted?

jandrese 2y ago

What's illegal about removing the fuse for the OnStar system from your own car? Certainly the doctrine of first sale applies here?

crmd 2y ago
On late model Toyotas, pulling the fuse for the DCM (Data Communication Module - component that sends nonconsensual telemetry back to Toyota) also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. There is a procedure to disable the DCM and restore at least the speaker, but it involves partial disassembly of the dashboard.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. That seems like a really small price to pay, honestly. I'd just install an aftermarket stereo and call it a day. Although I understand if others think that price is too hefty. We all decide for ourselves what we're willing to put up with.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    > That seems like a really small price to pay, honestly. I'd just install an aftermarket stereo and call it a day. The vast majority of the population cannot and will not do this.
- ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
  So disconnect the antenna, and for bonus marks connect a dummy load in its place.
  - crmd 2y ago
    There is a procedure at the link below for doing just that. You disconnect leads for the cellular main, cellular sub, and GPS antennas from the DCM, and replace them with 50 ohm terminators. This avoids error codes and check engine light, and instead leaves the transponder in a perpetual "out of range" state. https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-disabling-the-dcm-telematics-silencing-antennas.821649/ https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-dis...

Zigurd 2y ago

It looks like OnStar and other systems are on a dedicated fuse. Pulling that fuse would disable remote access to data. This would not disable onboard logging. Real location privacy on a journey would also require stashing your phone and toll box in a shielded bag and avoiding license plate readers.

steelframe 2y ago
You can probably just enable Airplane Mode on your phone and expect that to work fine.
- Zigurd 2y ago
  It's been since 3G that I delved into baseband specs in any depth, but I would not trust a powered up phone not to be commanded to connect to a network.
  - adamomada 2y ago
    Couldn’t this easily be proven by monitoring transmission power from the device? There are all sorts of people who go on vacation and use the switch to avoid roaming charges. It would be plainly obvious to those people that their supposedly offline phone went online when they look at their bill. Or is there some secret apn bypass?
    - Zigurd 2y ago
      Depending on how careful you are and what equipment you've got on hand, you might be able to detect that going on, but I think "easily" is a stretch. If there is a secret involved in this it would be undocumented commands sent by the network to phones that then interpret them as commands to connect to the network, plus baseband processors the periodically look for such commands. They don't radiate, so very little power is used, but they should be entirely dormant.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      I ask this all the time but have yet to find anyone that has actually measured it. According to Snowden, basebands are still powered and operational even when the main application OS (android/ios/etc.) are shut down. And a non-removable battery sure doesn't help that. Plus, he also says that the baseband often has its own separate connections to the GPS, microphone and camera and can operate them without the application OS involved. If the baseband is still powered, I can only assume it is simply sending (or responding to) periodic commands that do not require network authorization, which could possibly still let the network know where you are even without involving any roaming charges.

wil421 2y ago

Next you’ll need to cover your license plate from all the Flock cameras tracking every time you leave your city/county/state.

worik 2y ago

> As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers Naively... Is it illegal to cut the power to the GPS unit? I do not see why a car needs a GPS built in. So why can I not simply disable it? What am I missing?

jstanley 2y ago
It's inside a complicated box that you can't reach.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Not with that attitude you can't.
  - meowster 2y ago
    Maybe you can, but what about the 99.99999% of the population that can't.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      Why am I special? Any mod anyone would want to make to a car has a YouTube video associated with it. And for real, to borrow your number, that is true 99.99999% of the time.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  That complicated box has an antenna. Disconnect (and ideally terminate) the input and no more spying.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    That often requires removing the dash and radio, and possibly voiding a warranty or lease agreement.
- ssl-3 2y ago

moneywoes 2y ago

any more insight on alpr?

m463 2y ago

I thought there was some way the police can disable your engine via onstar.