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A lot of comments have the assumption that it is corporations responsibility to look after people. That philosophy is how we get healthcare tied to one's employ

A lot of comments have the assumption that it is corporations responsibility to look after people. That philosophy is how we get healthcare tied to one's employer. That approach attaches workers to their employer and makes switching jobs harder. I think it is better to see it as the government's responsibility to take care of it citizens. Medicaid, food stamps, and the negative income tax represents this approach. We don't necessarily see it as a bad thing that the government takes care of citizens. If someone is struggling, it is the governments role to step in and support that person. But it does make sense to talk about whether these programs provide sufficient support, or if our approach to taxation, which supports these programs, is fair.

cardy31 2y ago
Setting reasonable minimum wages would take care of citizens without a patchwork of programs being needed.
- gruez 2y ago
  If you want the government to "take care of it citizens", what we actually need is a floor on income (eg. welfare/UBI), not a floor on wages (ie. minimum wage). Minimum wage does nothing for people who are unemployed, of which it's inevitably going to exacerbate.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    > Minimum wage does nothing for people who are unemployed, of which it's inevitably going to exacerbate. Yet more "privatize profits, socialize the costs". Minimum wage has always trailed living wage. Often by a decade plus. It's always in arrears that it is updated (and several of the last updates have been further and further apart). Businesses have been able to pay people less than liveable wages, and then when there's an attempt at parity, they scream about how unfair it will be to that untouchable and sacrosanct pillar of American society, the Small Business Owner. Except I don't recall reading anywhere that a business owner was entitled to profitability. At a certain point, if your business can't afford to keep up with living wage needs, the solution is to close your doors, not advocate for underpaying people.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >Minimum wage has always trailed living wage Hidden in this is an assumption is that everyone is more than more productive than the "living wage" (whatever that is). In a country that has high living costs and is facing competition from developing countries with far less living costs, I think it's fairly reasonable to say there's a non-negligible population where this assumption doesn't hold. What about those people? For them, raising the minimum wage to the living wage won't increase their income, it'd make it $0 because there's no point in hiring them. >Yet more "privatize profits, socialize the costs". You realize I explicitly mentioned "welfare/UBI" in my previous comment? Or do you somehow think it's bad for the government to forcibly transfer wealth by taxing people/companies and then distributing through welfare/UBI, but it's somehow okay for the government to forcibly transfer wealth by mandating that companies pay their workers more?
- someguydave 2y ago
  Banning low wage labor hurts many low wage laborers
RIMR 2y ago
I think that government assistance should come universally. We should establish a minimum standard of living. Everyone should get food stamps - enough to survive. If you want, you can eat cheap store brand food for free year-round, or you can spend your entire balance at the beginning of each month at restaurants and artisan grocers because you make enough to afford to buy what you want with your own money when it's gone. Everyone should get healthcare, full stop. Going to the doctor should be free. Public health is massively important to a healthy society, we should treat that as core investment in the future of our nation. Everyone should get some form of housing. If you want, you can use a voucher to get a tiny studio for free, or you can apply the voucher to a larger rental that you can afford with the money you make. If you own a real estate, you can forfeit the rental voucher for a tax credit. Everyone should get some sort of universal basic income. With food, healthcare, and housing covered, it would just need to be enough to fill in the gaps for everything else. Enough to put gas in your car every once in a while, or to buy clothes, or anything else you might need. At this rate, you could just sit at home eating Great Value brand canned food and wearing clothes from Goodwill indefinitely, but it would be a boring life. The majority of people would seek something profitable to do with their lives, and the "profit motive" of capitalism would finally be realized for every American when people actually work for a better quality of life, rather than for survival. We could finally be free to pursue our careers or the sake of contributing to the world, rather than for the sake of "making a living". We could dedicate ourselves to noble yet unprofitable causes without relegating ourselves to poverty.
- drivebyhooting 2y ago
  Wouldn’t this greatly increase inflation? Look at post Covid rise in the cost of literally every humdrum item.
  - r14c 2y ago
    there's significant evidence that this is due to corporate price gauging. though it is fair to point out that this type of system does require a few other changes in the corporate incentive structure. shareholder primacy for one, would have to go. you can't really be a shareholder profit maximalist and provide a consistent standard of living for everyone in your society, because every possible penny is supposed to end up in the shareholders pocket. even if you could technically build more long-term wealth by investing in things like education, infrastructure, and affordable housing.

cardy31 2y ago

Setting reasonable minimum wages would take care of citizens without a patchwork of programs being needed.

gruez 2y ago
If you want the government to "take care of it citizens", what we actually need is a floor on income (eg. welfare/UBI), not a floor on wages (ie. minimum wage). Minimum wage does nothing for people who are unemployed, of which it's inevitably going to exacerbate.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > Minimum wage does nothing for people who are unemployed, of which it's inevitably going to exacerbate. Yet more "privatize profits, socialize the costs". Minimum wage has always trailed living wage. Often by a decade plus. It's always in arrears that it is updated (and several of the last updates have been further and further apart). Businesses have been able to pay people less than liveable wages, and then when there's an attempt at parity, they scream about how unfair it will be to that untouchable and sacrosanct pillar of American society, the Small Business Owner. Except I don't recall reading anywhere that a business owner was entitled to profitability. At a certain point, if your business can't afford to keep up with living wage needs, the solution is to close your doors, not advocate for underpaying people.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >Minimum wage has always trailed living wage Hidden in this is an assumption is that everyone is more than more productive than the "living wage" (whatever that is). In a country that has high living costs and is facing competition from developing countries with far less living costs, I think it's fairly reasonable to say there's a non-negligible population where this assumption doesn't hold. What about those people? For them, raising the minimum wage to the living wage won't increase their income, it'd make it $0 because there's no point in hiring them. >Yet more "privatize profits, socialize the costs". You realize I explicitly mentioned "welfare/UBI" in my previous comment? Or do you somehow think it's bad for the government to forcibly transfer wealth by taxing people/companies and then distributing through welfare/UBI, but it's somehow okay for the government to forcibly transfer wealth by mandating that companies pay their workers more?
someguydave 2y ago
Banning low wage labor hurts many low wage laborers

RIMR 2y ago

I think that government assistance should come universally. We should establish a minimum standard of living. Everyone should get food stamps - enough to survive. If you want, you can eat cheap store brand food for free year-round, or you can spend your entire balance at the beginning of each month at restaurants and artisan grocers because you make enough to afford to buy what you want with your own money when it's gone. Everyone should get healthcare, full stop. Going to the doctor should be free. Public health is massively important to a healthy society, we should treat that as core investment in the future of our nation. Everyone should get some form of housing. If you want, you can use a voucher to get a tiny studio for free, or you can apply the voucher to a larger rental that you can afford with the money you make. If you own a real estate, you can forfeit the rental voucher for a tax credit. Everyone should get some sort of universal basic income. With food, healthcare, and housing covered, it would just need to be enough to fill in the gaps for everything else. Enough to put gas in your car every once in a while, or to buy clothes, or anything else you might need. At this rate, you could just sit at home eating Great Value brand canned food and wearing clothes from Goodwill indefinitely, but it would be a boring life. The majority of people would seek something profitable to do with their lives, and the "profit motive" of capitalism would finally be realized for every American when people actually work for a better quality of life, rather than for survival. We could finally be free to pursue our careers or the sake of contributing to the world, rather than for the sake of "making a living". We could dedicate ourselves to noble yet unprofitable causes without relegating ourselves to poverty.

drivebyhooting 2y ago
Wouldn’t this greatly increase inflation? Look at post Covid rise in the cost of literally every humdrum item.
- r14c 2y ago
  there's significant evidence that this is due to corporate price gauging. though it is fair to point out that this type of system does require a few other changes in the corporate incentive structure. shareholder primacy for one, would have to go. you can't really be a shareholder profit maximalist and provide a consistent standard of living for everyone in your society, because every possible penny is supposed to end up in the shareholders pocket. even if you could technically build more long-term wealth by investing in things like education, infrastructure, and affordable housing.