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> I approach this from a matter of principle. I don't recognize anyone's "right" to enjoy someone else's privately owned property or, stated more honestly, to i

> I approach this from a matter of principle. I don't recognize anyone's "right" to enjoy someone else's privately owned property or, stated more honestly, to infringe upon the property rights of others. I also approach it from a matter of principle - I don't recognize anyone's right to truly "own" land. They didn't create it. It existed before they were born and it will exist after they die. Allowing a market in land doesn't, beyond any fringe degree, encourage the creation of new land. Disallowing a market in land does not decrease the supply of land. So by what right can a person "own" a piece of land they didn't create? On a base level, land is what a country is. Your citizenship of a country entitles you to exist upon the land of that country. Imagine if a child were born into a country where every scrap of land was privately owned, and every land owner refused that child the right to exist upon "their" land. What is the child supposed to do? I recognize that there are social and economic advantages to allowing people some exclusive rights of access to some land. I recognize that there are advantages to allowing some people some limited rights of monopoly when they make improvements to land. But I do not recognize that a private entity can truly "own" land, completely and in perpetuity, as if they had created it from whole cloth.

gottorf 2y ago
> I recognize that there are social and economic advantages to allowing people some exclusive rights of access to some land. I recognize that there are advantages to allowing some people some limited rights of monopoly when they make improvements to land. But I do not recognize that a private entity can truly "own" land, completely and in perpetuity, as if they had created it from whole cloth. What's the difference? Of course nobody truly "owns" land in the cosmic sense, for the reasons you stated; and of course most societies nevertheless permit the legal fiction of "land ownership", also for the reasons you stated (that generally it results in more favorable outcomes for society as a whole). So you're back to square one. A Georgist land-value tax is the fairest solution to this problem, I think. Let society as a whole enjoy the fruits of that which no landowner caused to happen (the value of the land without any improvements), and let the landowner enjoy the fruits of his own improvements upon the land.
klabb3 2y ago
100% true. The cult of land ownership is one of the most absurd norms in almost the entire world modulo the few nomadic peoples still around. It’s not just unjust and unsustainable but simply not pragmatic, judging by all exceptions: air space, pollution, zoning, rivers, damming, emergency access etc etc. From a human development perspective, what makes sense is to define usage rights. If you’re using the land for X I can use it for Y. This originates in the principles of refining nature: for instance if I build a boat out of a log, then it reasonably becomes my property because of the human labor that went into it. Where to draw the lines between when, where and how nature gets refined enough to get usage rights can’t easily be deduced from principles, and will vary across regions and cultures. For instance in sparse regions you can afford a larger buffer zone around dwellings. Even within a country (like the US) human lifestyle varies so much that it’s reasonable to have different rules in different places. Perhaps people are married to the concept of owning land so much that the wording cannot be changed. But it’s already obvious that nobody owns the land, the rivers, the lakes, the air. It’s absurd that it’s illegal to walk in the wilderness because of an imaginary line in the sand. I’m from a country with freedom to roam, so I have my bias. That said, to its credit the US has despite its strong private land ownership laws, an amazing and vast set of national-, state parks and BLM land. So from an access-to-nature POV, it’s an incredible country overall.

gottorf 2y ago

> I recognize that there are social and economic advantages to allowing people some exclusive rights of access to some land. I recognize that there are advantages to allowing some people some limited rights of monopoly when they make improvements to land. But I do not recognize that a private entity can truly "own" land, completely and in perpetuity, as if they had created it from whole cloth. What's the difference? Of course nobody truly "owns" land in the cosmic sense, for the reasons you stated; and of course most societies nevertheless permit the legal fiction of "land ownership", also for the reasons you stated (that generally it results in more favorable outcomes for society as a whole). So you're back to square one. A Georgist land-value tax is the fairest solution to this problem, I think. Let society as a whole enjoy the fruits of that which no landowner caused to happen (the value of the land without any improvements), and let the landowner enjoy the fruits of his own improvements upon the land.

klabb3 2y ago

100% true. The cult of land ownership is one of the most absurd norms in almost the entire world modulo the few nomadic peoples still around. It’s not just unjust and unsustainable but simply not pragmatic, judging by all exceptions: air space, pollution, zoning, rivers, damming, emergency access etc etc. From a human development perspective, what makes sense is to define usage rights. If you’re using the land for X I can use it for Y. This originates in the principles of refining nature: for instance if I build a boat out of a log, then it reasonably becomes my property because of the human labor that went into it. Where to draw the lines between when, where and how nature gets refined enough to get usage rights can’t easily be deduced from principles, and will vary across regions and cultures. For instance in sparse regions you can afford a larger buffer zone around dwellings. Even within a country (like the US) human lifestyle varies so much that it’s reasonable to have different rules in different places. Perhaps people are married to the concept of owning land so much that the wording cannot be changed. But it’s already obvious that nobody owns the land, the rivers, the lakes, the air. It’s absurd that it’s illegal to walk in the wilderness because of an imaginary line in the sand. I’m from a country with freedom to roam, so I have my bias. That said, to its credit the US has despite its strong private land ownership laws, an amazing and vast set of national-, state parks and BLM land. So from an access-to-nature POV, it’s an incredible country overall.