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> enforcement isn’t as strong of a predictor of shoplifting as poverty/inequality. I agree because there's still some morality left. But morality itself can ch

> enforcement isn’t as strong of a predictor of shoplifting as poverty/inequality. I agree because there's still some morality left. But morality itself can change, and if deviance is normalized by lack of enforcement we might very well end up in a situation where nobody thinks twice about shoplifting, just like when it comes to white-collar crime which is already normalized and keeps being rewarded by the market again and again, so it's not really surprising that more and more "blue-collar" crime is happening. > White collar and petty theft are very different Why? Are you saying stealing a 3£ chocolate bar is bad, but doing the same in software via a hidden fee or some arcane clause in the ToS that nobody read (and thus did not agree to) is acceptable? In both cases someone is out 3£.

vlovich123 2y ago
> I agree because there's still some morality left. But morality itself can change, and if deviance is normalized by lack of enforcement we might very well end up in a situation where nobody thinks twice about shoplifting That’s a strong claim, but is there any scientific basis for claiming that enforcement creates morality? Anecdotally I see morality police in super religious communities and all it seems to enforce is the appearance of morality but actually people are chafing against it and subverting it all the time - if anything the repression seems to create higher incidence of violent and sexual crimes. As for police, I haven’t checked recently but the number of police officers and the amount of crime that occurs seems to be fairly uncorrelated which is not supporting the hypothesis that more enforcement = better morality and less crime. One place I saw this play is out is in the Bahamas where you and super rich white people putting up huge fences claiming that the locals had a culture of theft - if it’s accessible steal it - when the simpler, but more uncomfortable truth, seemed to be that poverty and inequality creates resentment and the amount of inequality was quite extreme. > Why? Are you saying stealing a 3£ chocolate bar is bad, but doing the same in software via a hidden fee or some arcane clause in the ToS that nobody read (and thus did not agree to) is acceptable? In both cases someone is out 3£. I agree both are unacceptable but legally one form is an acceptable way to do business. White collar crime is something totally different by the way - it’s about individual actions like embezzlement or corruption. Corporate behavior is a whole other category. A major difference of corporate misbehavior is that companies generally exhibit a very sociopathic behavior so they engage in that pure calculus you talk about and moral hazards are extremely real (largely because the market is allowed to reward sociopaths). People at the individual level however don’t operate that way though - aside from where the brain is broken and there’s a compulsive act formed for theft or crime (often due to formative experiences during childhood), most people just don’t want to hurt each other but that desire is weak vs self preservation and preservation of your family. And what starts out as preservation can spiral downward into trying to give yourself the life you think you want (that nice jacket or nice tv).
- Nextgrid 2y ago
  > is there any scientific basis for claiming that enforcement creates morality Not sure (and doubt it) but my argument is that if enforcement was adequate then you wouldn't need morality - morality would be a "bonus" but even if it were to go away, adequate enforcement would still deter the undesirable behavior by making it unprofitable. > which is not supporting the hypothesis that more enforcement = better morality and less crime. "Law enforcement" in general is too broad to be able to draw this conclusion. Which crimes actually trigger enforcement (and what is the penalty)? If police is too busy busting kids smoking pot (or other victimless crimes that are easy to prosecute) to attend shoplifting incidents/property crime then shoplifting will remain regardless of how much "enforcement" there is (and of course the second-order effects from punishing pot smokers will set them up for a life of crime where they'll then "upgrade" to other crime with actual victims). > both are unacceptable but legally one form is an acceptable way to do business But law != morality. From a moral point of view I'm not sure there's a difference - in both cases someone is unjustly enriching themselves at the expense of the victim. When talking about morals and how they prevent people from acting antisocially, those morals may evolve over time if the bad behavior has been normalized by financial reward & lack of consequences. > People at the individual level however don’t operate that way though That is true but the economic incentives that are there (and lack of deterrence) means that people may start operating that way and I'd argue more and more people do, whether by choice or by lack of other options.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    And I’m saying that enforcement and morality are swamped by poverty and inequality. I’d recommend trying to find any grounding in evidence of your claims because the poverty and inequality links to crime are pretty well established in the data.

vlovich123 2y ago

> I agree because there's still some morality left. But morality itself can change, and if deviance is normalized by lack of enforcement we might very well end up in a situation where nobody thinks twice about shoplifting That’s a strong claim, but is there any scientific basis for claiming that enforcement creates morality? Anecdotally I see morality police in super religious communities and all it seems to enforce is the appearance of morality but actually people are chafing against it and subverting it all the time - if anything the repression seems to create higher incidence of violent and sexual crimes. As for police, I haven’t checked recently but the number of police officers and the amount of crime that occurs seems to be fairly uncorrelated which is not supporting the hypothesis that more enforcement = better morality and less crime. One place I saw this play is out is in the Bahamas where you and super rich white people putting up huge fences claiming that the locals had a culture of theft - if it’s accessible steal it - when the simpler, but more uncomfortable truth, seemed to be that poverty and inequality creates resentment and the amount of inequality was quite extreme. > Why? Are you saying stealing a 3£ chocolate bar is bad, but doing the same in software via a hidden fee or some arcane clause in the ToS that nobody read (and thus did not agree to) is acceptable? In both cases someone is out 3£. I agree both are unacceptable but legally one form is an acceptable way to do business. White collar crime is something totally different by the way - it’s about individual actions like embezzlement or corruption. Corporate behavior is a whole other category. A major difference of corporate misbehavior is that companies generally exhibit a very sociopathic behavior so they engage in that pure calculus you talk about and moral hazards are extremely real (largely because the market is allowed to reward sociopaths). People at the individual level however don’t operate that way though - aside from where the brain is broken and there’s a compulsive act formed for theft or crime (often due to formative experiences during childhood), most people just don’t want to hurt each other but that desire is weak vs self preservation and preservation of your family. And what starts out as preservation can spiral downward into trying to give yourself the life you think you want (that nice jacket or nice tv).

Nextgrid 2y ago
> is there any scientific basis for claiming that enforcement creates morality Not sure (and doubt it) but my argument is that if enforcement was adequate then you wouldn't need morality - morality would be a "bonus" but even if it were to go away, adequate enforcement would still deter the undesirable behavior by making it unprofitable. > which is not supporting the hypothesis that more enforcement = better morality and less crime. "Law enforcement" in general is too broad to be able to draw this conclusion. Which crimes actually trigger enforcement (and what is the penalty)? If police is too busy busting kids smoking pot (or other victimless crimes that are easy to prosecute) to attend shoplifting incidents/property crime then shoplifting will remain regardless of how much "enforcement" there is (and of course the second-order effects from punishing pot smokers will set them up for a life of crime where they'll then "upgrade" to other crime with actual victims). > both are unacceptable but legally one form is an acceptable way to do business But law != morality. From a moral point of view I'm not sure there's a difference - in both cases someone is unjustly enriching themselves at the expense of the victim. When talking about morals and how they prevent people from acting antisocially, those morals may evolve over time if the bad behavior has been normalized by financial reward & lack of consequences. > People at the individual level however don’t operate that way though That is true but the economic incentives that are there (and lack of deterrence) means that people may start operating that way and I'd argue more and more people do, whether by choice or by lack of other options.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  And I’m saying that enforcement and morality are swamped by poverty and inequality. I’d recommend trying to find any grounding in evidence of your claims because the poverty and inequality links to crime are pretty well established in the data.