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> "Access rights do not extend to motorised activities... This seems problematic as there are remote properties that are only accessible through long trails. S

> "Access rights do not extend to motorised activities... This seems problematic as there are remote properties that are only accessible through long trails. Stuff like ice fishing spots where you might need to snowmobile a few kilometers. Same with ATVs for deep woods camping. Personally, I have a registered trail through land I own and have no problem with it. I hope people get it to enjoy since I don't get enough chances to. I can't even get to it myself without passing through a dozen different lots.

micromacrofoot 2y ago
This might be an unpopular opinion. But if you need motorized conveyance to camp remotely... then you should probably not camp remotely. It's ok if some wild areas are less accessible.
- rrix2 2y ago
  Yep, if people want to do that there are hundreds of miles of forest service roads they can use to drive in to our national forests.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    *cries in east coast* Seriously, we have nothing over here. All the land was bought up, often before there even was a united states. And the forests we do have tend to be very heavily regulated. You want to do anything it's all pay for permit and be clustered with a bunch of other permit buyers. I am not aware of single forest in the Northeast where you can just drive in, camp, and leave without breaking the law.
    - doctoboggan 2y ago
      I've done exactly what you describe (drive in, camp, leave without breaking the law) in the White Mountains in NH[0]. In general, dispersed camping[1] is legal in almost all national forest and BLM land. I think many people don't realize this but you can camp for free almost anywhere in a national forest (keeping certain distances from trails, roads and bodies of water) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Mountains_(New_England) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Mountains_(New_England) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersed_camping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersed_camping
      - prometheus76 2y ago
        Isn't there a 14-day limit in National Parks?
        ghaff 2y ago
        In general there are far more restrictions in National Parks than in national forests than on BLM land. There are some restrictions but really very few in the latter two categories.
      - Workaccount2 2y ago
        If you hike in you can camp on the east coast, generally you must be at least 1/4 mile from where you park. On the west coats you can just pull in with your car and set up camp right there.
    - mazugrin2 2y ago
      Check out the White Mountain National Forest in New Hampshire or the Green Mountain National Forest in Vermont. I've heard it's also legal in CT State Forests but haven't actually seen this written down anywhere.
    - rowdyelectron 2y ago
      Greene mountains in VT is one example. You can even shoot there without being bothered. Lmk if you need a list of places in MA NH and VT.
    - volkl48 2y ago
      There's lots of state + national forest land in the Northeast where that's legal. I've done it many times in PA/NY/VT/NH/ME. There are probably some options in the other more developed states too, but I don't usually visit them as much for outdoor recreation. Outside of the most popular locations for tourists that's pretty much the default. ------- If you've had trouble finding this, have you been limiting your search to parks? Parks are usually more heavily restricted in terms of camping.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      White Mountain National Forest for one. There are restriction regarding how close to a trail or hut you can camp and the topography can be challenging but you certainly can. But yes there are orders of magnitude more national forest land out west. Probably more than the size of the entire or maybe UK.
    - zhynn 2y ago
      I'll just leave this here: https://fpr.vermont.gov/recreation/activities/camping/primitive-camping https://fpr.vermont.gov/recreation/activities/camping/primit... There are many, and nobody goes there.
    - dhagberg 2y ago
      Historically, Maine had excellent recreation policies in cooperation with the private paper companies that owned the majority of land in the northern part of the state: areas not actively being logged were available for recreation access, as were vehicles on logging roads (though you best yield to the logging trucks that drive down the middle of the roads, even if it means you need to dive into the ditch). State recreation fees for snowmobiles, fishing, etc. would cover things like insuring the private landowners against liability. However, starting in the mid/late 90's, much of the paper company land was divested and sold to private equity land holders (yay modern finance!) and those previous open access policies have been very much curtailed. It's a big loss to the community, but it sure must be making some money for shareholders somewhere...
    - throw7 2y ago
      In NY, the state parks will be heavily regulated having designated pay for/reserved camp spots along with amenities. However, the forest preserves (Adirondacks/Catskills) and state forests do allow backcountry/primitive camping. Just look for a nearby state forest and look up the dec regulations for that site. More than likely you can can primitive camp there.
      - Workaccount2 2y ago
        You can primitive/dispersed camp at most forests in the NE. However they all require being far from a road. The best you can do is park and hike in.
        ghaff 2y ago
        1/4 mile is not far from a road. Of course, terrain may otherwise make it difficult to camp if the trail heads right up.
        Workaccount2 2y ago
        I've done it, it's just a huge PIA compared to out west where you just get on forest roads where there are clearings you pull into an camp all over the place. The east coast just has this strong hostility towards camping for some reason.
        ghaff 2y ago
        There are a lot more people looking to camp in generally smaller areas especially on weekends. And the east doesn’t have the large networks of forest roads and almost roads and not really roads that you have in many western national forests and BLM land. The West obviously has plenty of camping restrictions in popular areas like national parks and wilderness areas where you may have year in advance lotteries. I’m not sure why the east would be uniquely hostile given the same agencies administer federal land across the whole country. But, in general, yes if you want to get away from people and have more flexibility in where you can camp, you’re probably best off traveling to the western states.
- burningChrome 2y ago
  Which can also make camping and hiking in those areas far more dangerous. If a rescue team have hike in 20 miles to get you without any motorized vehicles and can't get a chopper into those remote areas? They shouldn't be remote, they should just be left completely inaccessible. The problem then is people these days, IMHO are far more reckless and stupid and will try and prove Mother Nature wrong by attempting to go into these areas to get internet cred from Tik Tok and other platforms. Perfect example is the people who go to Longs Peak and attempt the Keyhole Route thinking its a well traveled hike and easy.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    If people are reckless and stupid that seems a self-correcting problem. There are a ton of places in the Western US that are more than 20 miles from a road with very few restrictions on camping.
  - tekla 2y ago
    If you don't want to do it, don't do it.
  - simplyluke 2y ago
    It's okay for some areas and activities to be more dangerous. "Completely inaccessible" is banning access for safetyism. Decades of deaths in activities like backcountry skiing staying relatively flat while the numbers of people doing those activities exploding would go directly against your assertion that people are more reckless and stupid in the social media age than they were in the past. If things like the Keyhole route are outside of your risk tolerance, that's a perfectly valid and rational decision. I'd encourage you not to do them. That doesn't mean no one else should be allowed to take risks you don't.
BanazirGalbasi 2y ago
Maybe explicitly registered trails (like the one on your land) could grant more access than the default Scottish ones mentioned above. That way the people who are okay with motorized vehicle access can allow it while not affecting the majority who probably don't want vehicles running through their land. A decade ago several teenagers wore a track through the back of my parents' yard with snowmobiles during winter. I'm not familiar enough with snowmobiles to know how much snow should be on the ground, but they kept going after it was reduced to muddy slush that had been churned up by the treads in the back.
- ghaff 2y ago
  My neighbor doesn’t really care about people walking on her property down by the river. But periodically some ATVer rips down the no trespassing signs and makes a complete mess of the trail during muddy conditions.
  - skrebbel 2y ago
    And this is why a law like this wouldn’t work in low-trust societies like the US.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      People need to give terms like low trust , especially as applied to large and diverse countries, a rest rather than spouting them because they think it makes them sound smart. In this case it’s what used to be a very rural town—founded 1653–which over the last few decades has become much more exurban and people who have lived there for a long time find the increased housing density, which in spite of still being pretty low, means people can’t just hunt and ride ATVs everywhere like they could 40 years ago.
      - skrebbel 2y ago
        Fair enough!
groby_b 2y ago
If you want to camp in the deep woods, and there is no trail, hike. Seriously. I appreciate land owners who do make trails available. Seriously. I like offroading, I'm grateful for people who give that opportunity. But I don't think we're entitled to reach everything in a motorized way. And I certainly understand if land owners don't want a permanent stream of ATVs across their land. This is ultimately a balance of rights, and I think "no motor vehicles unless the land owners allows it" is a fairly decent balance.
baobun 2y ago
I guess just like Scottish law is adapted to Scottish environment, similar adjustments can be made were applicable. No one suggested porting Scottish code verbatim to Alaska. Also, it's not like long hikes with camping along the way are unheard of.
carlosjobim 2y ago
> Stuff like ice fishing spots where you might need to snowmobile a few kilometers. You generally have the right to travel any river or lake. I haven't heard of any country or place that limits this.
jononor 2y ago
A few kilometers of snow is easily crossed by skis or snowshoes. Every cabin in Norway used to be accessed like that (changing now the last 2 years, where people now mostly expect to drive to the door). But still skiing a few kilometers is a basic life skill to me, especially if one is going to be going into the woods in the wintertime... At least from 10-12 years of age.

micromacrofoot 2y ago

This might be an unpopular opinion. But if you need motorized conveyance to camp remotely... then you should probably not camp remotely. It's ok if some wild areas are less accessible.

rrix2 2y ago
Yep, if people want to do that there are hundreds of miles of forest service roads they can use to drive in to our national forests.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  *cries in east coast* Seriously, we have nothing over here. All the land was bought up, often before there even was a united states. And the forests we do have tend to be very heavily regulated. You want to do anything it's all pay for permit and be clustered with a bunch of other permit buyers. I am not aware of single forest in the Northeast where you can just drive in, camp, and leave without breaking the law.
  - doctoboggan 2y ago
    I've done exactly what you describe (drive in, camp, leave without breaking the law) in the White Mountains in NH[0]. In general, dispersed camping[1] is legal in almost all national forest and BLM land. I think many people don't realize this but you can camp for free almost anywhere in a national forest (keeping certain distances from trails, roads and bodies of water) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Mountains_(New_England) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Mountains_(New_England) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersed_camping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersed_camping
    - prometheus76 2y ago
      Isn't there a 14-day limit in National Parks?
      - ghaff 2y ago
        In general there are far more restrictions in National Parks than in national forests than on BLM land. There are some restrictions but really very few in the latter two categories.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      If you hike in you can camp on the east coast, generally you must be at least 1/4 mile from where you park. On the west coats you can just pull in with your car and set up camp right there.
  - mazugrin2 2y ago
    Check out the White Mountain National Forest in New Hampshire or the Green Mountain National Forest in Vermont. I've heard it's also legal in CT State Forests but haven't actually seen this written down anywhere.
  - rowdyelectron 2y ago
    Greene mountains in VT is one example. You can even shoot there without being bothered. Lmk if you need a list of places in MA NH and VT.
  - volkl48 2y ago
    There's lots of state + national forest land in the Northeast where that's legal. I've done it many times in PA/NY/VT/NH/ME. There are probably some options in the other more developed states too, but I don't usually visit them as much for outdoor recreation. Outside of the most popular locations for tourists that's pretty much the default. ------- If you've had trouble finding this, have you been limiting your search to parks? Parks are usually more heavily restricted in terms of camping.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    White Mountain National Forest for one. There are restriction regarding how close to a trail or hut you can camp and the topography can be challenging but you certainly can. But yes there are orders of magnitude more national forest land out west. Probably more than the size of the entire or maybe UK.
  - zhynn 2y ago
    I'll just leave this here: https://fpr.vermont.gov/recreation/activities/camping/primitive-camping https://fpr.vermont.gov/recreation/activities/camping/primit... There are many, and nobody goes there.
  - dhagberg 2y ago
    Historically, Maine had excellent recreation policies in cooperation with the private paper companies that owned the majority of land in the northern part of the state: areas not actively being logged were available for recreation access, as were vehicles on logging roads (though you best yield to the logging trucks that drive down the middle of the roads, even if it means you need to dive into the ditch). State recreation fees for snowmobiles, fishing, etc. would cover things like insuring the private landowners against liability. However, starting in the mid/late 90's, much of the paper company land was divested and sold to private equity land holders (yay modern finance!) and those previous open access policies have been very much curtailed. It's a big loss to the community, but it sure must be making some money for shareholders somewhere...
  - throw7 2y ago
    In NY, the state parks will be heavily regulated having designated pay for/reserved camp spots along with amenities. However, the forest preserves (Adirondacks/Catskills) and state forests do allow backcountry/primitive camping. Just look for a nearby state forest and look up the dec regulations for that site. More than likely you can can primitive camp there.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      You can primitive/dispersed camp at most forests in the NE. However they all require being far from a road. The best you can do is park and hike in.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        1/4 mile is not far from a road. Of course, terrain may otherwise make it difficult to camp if the trail heads right up.
        Workaccount2 2y ago
        I've done it, it's just a huge PIA compared to out west where you just get on forest roads where there are clearings you pull into an camp all over the place. The east coast just has this strong hostility towards camping for some reason.
        ghaff 2y ago
        There are a lot more people looking to camp in generally smaller areas especially on weekends. And the east doesn’t have the large networks of forest roads and almost roads and not really roads that you have in many western national forests and BLM land. The West obviously has plenty of camping restrictions in popular areas like national parks and wilderness areas where you may have year in advance lotteries. I’m not sure why the east would be uniquely hostile given the same agencies administer federal land across the whole country. But, in general, yes if you want to get away from people and have more flexibility in where you can camp, you’re probably best off traveling to the western states.
burningChrome 2y ago
Which can also make camping and hiking in those areas far more dangerous. If a rescue team have hike in 20 miles to get you without any motorized vehicles and can't get a chopper into those remote areas? They shouldn't be remote, they should just be left completely inaccessible. The problem then is people these days, IMHO are far more reckless and stupid and will try and prove Mother Nature wrong by attempting to go into these areas to get internet cred from Tik Tok and other platforms. Perfect example is the people who go to Longs Peak and attempt the Keyhole Route thinking its a well traveled hike and easy.
- ghaff 2y ago
  If people are reckless and stupid that seems a self-correcting problem. There are a ton of places in the Western US that are more than 20 miles from a road with very few restrictions on camping.
- tekla 2y ago
  If you don't want to do it, don't do it.
- simplyluke 2y ago
  It's okay for some areas and activities to be more dangerous. "Completely inaccessible" is banning access for safetyism. Decades of deaths in activities like backcountry skiing staying relatively flat while the numbers of people doing those activities exploding would go directly against your assertion that people are more reckless and stupid in the social media age than they were in the past. If things like the Keyhole route are outside of your risk tolerance, that's a perfectly valid and rational decision. I'd encourage you not to do them. That doesn't mean no one else should be allowed to take risks you don't.

BanazirGalbasi 2y ago

Maybe explicitly registered trails (like the one on your land) could grant more access than the default Scottish ones mentioned above. That way the people who are okay with motorized vehicle access can allow it while not affecting the majority who probably don't want vehicles running through their land. A decade ago several teenagers wore a track through the back of my parents' yard with snowmobiles during winter. I'm not familiar enough with snowmobiles to know how much snow should be on the ground, but they kept going after it was reduced to muddy slush that had been churned up by the treads in the back.

ghaff 2y ago
My neighbor doesn’t really care about people walking on her property down by the river. But periodically some ATVer rips down the no trespassing signs and makes a complete mess of the trail during muddy conditions.
- skrebbel 2y ago
  And this is why a law like this wouldn’t work in low-trust societies like the US.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    People need to give terms like low trust , especially as applied to large and diverse countries, a rest rather than spouting them because they think it makes them sound smart. In this case it’s what used to be a very rural town—founded 1653–which over the last few decades has become much more exurban and people who have lived there for a long time find the increased housing density, which in spite of still being pretty low, means people can’t just hunt and ride ATVs everywhere like they could 40 years ago.
    - skrebbel 2y ago
      Fair enough!

groby_b 2y ago

If you want to camp in the deep woods, and there is no trail, hike. Seriously. I appreciate land owners who do make trails available. Seriously. I like offroading, I'm grateful for people who give that opportunity. But I don't think we're entitled to reach everything in a motorized way. And I certainly understand if land owners don't want a permanent stream of ATVs across their land. This is ultimately a balance of rights, and I think "no motor vehicles unless the land owners allows it" is a fairly decent balance.

baobun 2y ago

I guess just like Scottish law is adapted to Scottish environment, similar adjustments can be made were applicable. No one suggested porting Scottish code verbatim to Alaska. Also, it's not like long hikes with camping along the way are unheard of.

carlosjobim 2y ago

> Stuff like ice fishing spots where you might need to snowmobile a few kilometers. You generally have the right to travel any river or lake. I haven't heard of any country or place that limits this.

jononor 2y ago

A few kilometers of snow is easily crossed by skis or snowshoes. Every cabin in Norway used to be accessed like that (changing now the last 2 years, where people now mostly expect to drive to the door). But still skiing a few kilometers is a basic life skill to me, especially if one is going to be going into the woods in the wintertime... At least from 10-12 years of age.