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Well, no, I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with that. We didn't just stop teaching children how to read the second that text-to-speech stuff came about,

Well, no, I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with that. We didn't just stop teaching children how to read the second that text-to-speech stuff came about, and we didn't stop teaching basic arithmetic the second that calculators were invented, and we didn't stop teaching algebra the second that Wolfram Alpha was released. There is value in learning the fundamentals of things. If you never actually learn algebra, then it becomes effectively impossible to do the more advanced stuff.

ben_w 2y ago
> We didn't just stop teaching children how to read the second that text-to-speech stuff came about TTS from visual input isn't good enough to be an example of that yet. It's good, but not that good. > we didn't stop teaching basic arithmetic the second that calculators were invented and we didn't stop teaching algebra the second that Wolfram Alpha was released. And yet, my A-level exams 22 years ago required me to have a graphic calculator.
- tombert 2y ago
  > TTS from visual input isn't good enough to be an example of that yet. It's good, but not that good. Even if TTS were absolutely perfect, then I'd still maintain my point. > And yet, my A-level exams 22 years ago required me to have a graphic calculator. Doesn't that sort of prove my point? Calculators existed and were obviously useful, but they didn't just stop teaching you algebra, despite knowing you had a calculator.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > Doesn't that sort of prove my point? Only if you missed mine about how it is no longer cheating to use one.
    - tombert 2y ago
      I see, so you're claiming that if AI can be utilized to solve the problem, and it's determined to be useful, then it should be allowed to be on a test as a result, in the same way that a graphing calculator is no longer considered cheating? I think the disagreement I have is that I think part of the reason calculators are allowed on calculus tests is because they're actually not that useful for a lot of what they teach you in calculus. I had a graphing calculator in my math and physics classes in high school, but most of my work was still done with a pen and paper. The calculator was of course useful for the arithmetic stuff, and it could be useful to sanity-check your work (e.g. to see if the roots you calculated were correct), but I still had to do most of the actual calculus by hand. Even when I got a calculator with a CAS built in (HP 50G), I would still have to do most of the algebra by hand, and honestly if my teachers had known that my calculator had a CAS I suspect they wouldn't have allowed me to use it to begin with.

ben_w 2y ago

> We didn't just stop teaching children how to read the second that text-to-speech stuff came about TTS from visual input isn't good enough to be an example of that yet. It's good, but not that good. > we didn't stop teaching basic arithmetic the second that calculators were invented and we didn't stop teaching algebra the second that Wolfram Alpha was released. And yet, my A-level exams 22 years ago required me to have a graphic calculator.

tombert 2y ago
> TTS from visual input isn't good enough to be an example of that yet. It's good, but not that good. Even if TTS were absolutely perfect, then I'd still maintain my point. > And yet, my A-level exams 22 years ago required me to have a graphic calculator. Doesn't that sort of prove my point? Calculators existed and were obviously useful, but they didn't just stop teaching you algebra, despite knowing you had a calculator.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > Doesn't that sort of prove my point? Only if you missed mine about how it is no longer cheating to use one.
  - tombert 2y ago
    I see, so you're claiming that if AI can be utilized to solve the problem, and it's determined to be useful, then it should be allowed to be on a test as a result, in the same way that a graphing calculator is no longer considered cheating? I think the disagreement I have is that I think part of the reason calculators are allowed on calculus tests is because they're actually not that useful for a lot of what they teach you in calculus. I had a graphing calculator in my math and physics classes in high school, but most of my work was still done with a pen and paper. The calculator was of course useful for the arithmetic stuff, and it could be useful to sanity-check your work (e.g. to see if the roots you calculated were correct), but I still had to do most of the actual calculus by hand. Even when I got a calculator with a CAS built in (HP 50G), I would still have to do most of the algebra by hand, and honestly if my teachers had known that my calculator had a CAS I suspect they wouldn't have allowed me to use it to begin with.