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American in Denmark here: Yes, this is exactly right. The article covers a lot of topics but does a good job for the most part. The only thing not mentioned fro

American in Denmark here: Yes, this is exactly right. The article covers a lot of topics but does a good job for the most part. The only thing not mentioned from HN point of view is that for tech workers, salaries are MUCH lower than in the US. My family's quality of life quotient though is very high. My kids (12, 14) have basically free reign of the city and we don't worry about them at all.

jeppester 2y ago
It has some times been a political theme in Denmark that we have to attract highly skilled workers and how we can do that best. Often the talk has been about for instance giving foreign workers tax exemptions. On those occasions I've often wondered how much of an impact the high trust and high social of safety has - for instance compared to salary. I'd imagine that it plays a big role in making people stay.
- intunderflow 2y ago
  The tax exemptions definitely help at least getting people to move in the first place and they were a big part in my decision (I'm on the Forskerskatteordningen) It's hard to put a value on a high trust high quality of life society without living in it first It's important that Denmark continues to attract high quality employers (such as in tech, big tech companies with American levels of pay). I think our work ethic here seems to help with that too (Danes seem to be 100% switched on all the time at work but will not touch it once the day is over). At least the impression I get, which is of course subjective and just my experience, is that US company owners consider us more or at least as productive as folks on the west coast.
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  This is generally an issue currently in the EU: Countries are stealing talent and letting residents pay. As such I myself exploited NHR in Portugal. But it is possible to both move to Hungary and Holland on tax reduction schemes. Personally, I hold the belief that these should not exist. They are a race to the bottom only the well educated can participate in.
bitschubser_ 2y ago
Living in a bigger small town in Germany I completely agree, I can’t imagine living somewhere where I can’t let the kids roam free… if I’m at the bakery I don’t have to lock my bike (and neither do the others) most of the kids at the local skatepark where I skate come and go on their own, on bikes or public transit and are unsupervised… but nobody would suspect neglect… if something happens we’ll help each other and the parents get called by their friends everyone looks after each other, the older ones don’t smoke their weed near the younger :D and so forth… oh and this is in a more “socially strained” neighborhood not the rich villa type of neighborhood
tossandthrow 2y ago
The salary component is interesting. While Denmark definitely has lower salaries than the US, it still has higher salaries than other European countries. I considered moving to France or the UK, but in both cases I would have to take serious salary reductions. Anecdotally, I know that Tesla Berlin hire SWEs at around 60k EUR. Offers from Norway and Sweden have been considerably below what the Danish unions report as average salary.
- intunderflow 2y ago
  Danish salaries, especially at US companies, aren't even that low, to take an example: https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer/locations/denmark?country=65 https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer...
  - shiftright 2y ago
    That's more than double what the average company pays a senior dev in Denmark.
    - tossandthrow 2y ago
      The big difference is the stock component, which Danish companies usually does not offer. But DKK 1.000.000 a year is not far off senior roles. (However, a lot of roles are also much lower).
      - shiftright 2y ago
        Not too far of but 20% is still significant, and I think even so it would be mostly the top you can get from local companies. Even the Novo/Lego type companies are pretty stingy on IC compensation. There's limited upside, and startups are very far away IMO. You get some upside wrt work/life balance. But very limited flexibility in other ways. And culture-wise it's another can of worms. Generally speaking it's better to work for foreign companies here.
      - slekker 2y ago
fvdessen 2y ago
There's a general obsession on GDP and salary numbers that is a bit myopic. Let's say in country A people drop their kids by car at school, while country B the kids go by themselves at school by foot. All other things being equal, the higher expenses on gas and cars will show up as higher GDP for country A, which will in turn be considered 'wealthier'. But is it really ? Likewise for salaries, the higher number hides what it is expended for, maybe you'll need to expend a lot more to be able to live in a high quality of life neighbourhood.
- bovermyer 2y ago
  That... is a fascinating way to put it. Huh. I'll have to think about that.
- coreyh14444 2y ago
  Oh totally. Coming from the States, where our costs included two cars, healthcare out of pocket expenses, daycare, etc and coming to DK where, yes, taxes are high, but we have zero cars, zero healthcare costs, etc.
  - monssooon 2y ago
    if you consider tax of 45% "zero cost" yes...
    - rational_indian 2y ago
      My effective rate of taxation is close to 40-50% here in India. I doubt I get one tenth the benefit. Rampant corruption, abysmal infrastructure, no rule of law...I could go on.
  - Gibbon1 2y ago
    One of the owners of my company moved to France for a few years. Which was important because if he stayed in the US he would have had to get an outside job instead of working for the company. That would have been bad. It was all because child expenses and healthcare.
dfxm12 2y ago
What good is "more" money if you have a terrible quality of life quotient? I mean, do you feel your employers are exploiting your labor? Are you anxious about how your family will afford to send two kids to university? Surprise medical bills ruining you financially? Likely not... Perhaps this is an intentional tradeoff that in some way leads to trusting.

jeppester 2y ago

It has some times been a political theme in Denmark that we have to attract highly skilled workers and how we can do that best. Often the talk has been about for instance giving foreign workers tax exemptions. On those occasions I've often wondered how much of an impact the high trust and high social of safety has - for instance compared to salary. I'd imagine that it plays a big role in making people stay.

intunderflow 2y ago
The tax exemptions definitely help at least getting people to move in the first place and they were a big part in my decision (I'm on the Forskerskatteordningen) It's hard to put a value on a high trust high quality of life society without living in it first It's important that Denmark continues to attract high quality employers (such as in tech, big tech companies with American levels of pay). I think our work ethic here seems to help with that too (Danes seem to be 100% switched on all the time at work but will not touch it once the day is over). At least the impression I get, which is of course subjective and just my experience, is that US company owners consider us more or at least as productive as folks on the west coast.
tossandthrow 2y ago
This is generally an issue currently in the EU: Countries are stealing talent and letting residents pay. As such I myself exploited NHR in Portugal. But it is possible to both move to Hungary and Holland on tax reduction schemes. Personally, I hold the belief that these should not exist. They are a race to the bottom only the well educated can participate in.

bitschubser_ 2y ago

Living in a bigger small town in Germany I completely agree, I can’t imagine living somewhere where I can’t let the kids roam free… if I’m at the bakery I don’t have to lock my bike (and neither do the others) most of the kids at the local skatepark where I skate come and go on their own, on bikes or public transit and are unsupervised… but nobody would suspect neglect… if something happens we’ll help each other and the parents get called by their friends everyone looks after each other, the older ones don’t smoke their weed near the younger :D and so forth… oh and this is in a more “socially strained” neighborhood not the rich villa type of neighborhood

tossandthrow 2y ago

The salary component is interesting. While Denmark definitely has lower salaries than the US, it still has higher salaries than other European countries. I considered moving to France or the UK, but in both cases I would have to take serious salary reductions. Anecdotally, I know that Tesla Berlin hire SWEs at around 60k EUR. Offers from Norway and Sweden have been considerably below what the Danish unions report as average salary.

intunderflow 2y ago
Danish salaries, especially at US companies, aren't even that low, to take an example: https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer/locations/denmark?country=65 https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer...
- shiftright 2y ago
  That's more than double what the average company pays a senior dev in Denmark.
  - tossandthrow 2y ago
    The big difference is the stock component, which Danish companies usually does not offer. But DKK 1.000.000 a year is not far off senior roles. (However, a lot of roles are also much lower).
    - shiftright 2y ago
      Not too far of but 20% is still significant, and I think even so it would be mostly the top you can get from local companies. Even the Novo/Lego type companies are pretty stingy on IC compensation. There's limited upside, and startups are very far away IMO. You get some upside wrt work/life balance. But very limited flexibility in other ways. And culture-wise it's another can of worms. Generally speaking it's better to work for foreign companies here.
    - slekker 2y ago

fvdessen 2y ago

There's a general obsession on GDP and salary numbers that is a bit myopic. Let's say in country A people drop their kids by car at school, while country B the kids go by themselves at school by foot. All other things being equal, the higher expenses on gas and cars will show up as higher GDP for country A, which will in turn be considered 'wealthier'. But is it really ? Likewise for salaries, the higher number hides what it is expended for, maybe you'll need to expend a lot more to be able to live in a high quality of life neighbourhood.

bovermyer 2y ago
That... is a fascinating way to put it. Huh. I'll have to think about that.
coreyh14444 2y ago
Oh totally. Coming from the States, where our costs included two cars, healthcare out of pocket expenses, daycare, etc and coming to DK where, yes, taxes are high, but we have zero cars, zero healthcare costs, etc.
- monssooon 2y ago
  if you consider tax of 45% "zero cost" yes...
  - rational_indian 2y ago
    My effective rate of taxation is close to 40-50% here in India. I doubt I get one tenth the benefit. Rampant corruption, abysmal infrastructure, no rule of law...I could go on.
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  One of the owners of my company moved to France for a few years. Which was important because if he stayed in the US he would have had to get an outside job instead of working for the company. That would have been bad. It was all because child expenses and healthcare.

dfxm12 2y ago

What good is "more" money if you have a terrible quality of life quotient? I mean, do you feel your employers are exploiting your labor? Are you anxious about how your family will afford to send two kids to university? Surprise medical bills ruining you financially? Likely not... Perhaps this is an intentional tradeoff that in some way leads to trusting.