9 ms·

The Denmark secret: how it became the most trusting country

49 points by PotatoNinja 2y ago

coreyh14444 2y ago
American in Denmark here: Yes, this is exactly right. The article covers a lot of topics but does a good job for the most part. The only thing not mentioned from HN point of view is that for tech workers, salaries are MUCH lower than in the US. My family's quality of life quotient though is very high. My kids (12, 14) have basically free reign of the city and we don't worry about them at all.
- jeppester 2y ago
  It has some times been a political theme in Denmark that we have to attract highly skilled workers and how we can do that best. Often the talk has been about for instance giving foreign workers tax exemptions. On those occasions I've often wondered how much of an impact the high trust and high social of safety has - for instance compared to salary. I'd imagine that it plays a big role in making people stay.
  - intunderflow 2y ago
    The tax exemptions definitely help at least getting people to move in the first place and they were a big part in my decision (I'm on the Forskerskatteordningen) It's hard to put a value on a high trust high quality of life society without living in it first It's important that Denmark continues to attract high quality employers (such as in tech, big tech companies with American levels of pay). I think our work ethic here seems to help with that too (Danes seem to be 100% switched on all the time at work but will not touch it once the day is over). At least the impression I get, which is of course subjective and just my experience, is that US company owners consider us more or at least as productive as folks on the west coast.
  - tossandthrow 2y ago
    This is generally an issue currently in the EU: Countries are stealing talent and letting residents pay. As such I myself exploited NHR in Portugal. But it is possible to both move to Hungary and Holland on tax reduction schemes. Personally, I hold the belief that these should not exist. They are a race to the bottom only the well educated can participate in.
- bitschubser_ 2y ago
  Living in a bigger small town in Germany I completely agree, I can’t imagine living somewhere where I can’t let the kids roam free… if I’m at the bakery I don’t have to lock my bike (and neither do the others) most of the kids at the local skatepark where I skate come and go on their own, on bikes or public transit and are unsupervised… but nobody would suspect neglect… if something happens we’ll help each other and the parents get called by their friends everyone looks after each other, the older ones don’t smoke their weed near the younger :D and so forth… oh and this is in a more “socially strained” neighborhood not the rich villa type of neighborhood
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  The salary component is interesting. While Denmark definitely has lower salaries than the US, it still has higher salaries than other European countries. I considered moving to France or the UK, but in both cases I would have to take serious salary reductions. Anecdotally, I know that Tesla Berlin hire SWEs at around 60k EUR. Offers from Norway and Sweden have been considerably below what the Danish unions report as average salary.
  - intunderflow 2y ago
    Danish salaries, especially at US companies, aren't even that low, to take an example: https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer/locations/denmark?country=65 https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer...
    - shiftright 2y ago
      That's more than double what the average company pays a senior dev in Denmark.
      - tossandthrow 2y ago
        The big difference is the stock component, which Danish companies usually does not offer. But DKK 1.000.000 a year is not far off senior roles. (However, a lot of roles are also much lower).
        shiftright 2y ago
        Not too far of but 20% is still significant, and I think even so it would be mostly the top you can get from local companies. Even the Novo/Lego type companies are pretty stingy on IC compensation. There's limited upside, and startups are very far away IMO. You get some upside wrt work/life balance. But very limited flexibility in other ways. And culture-wise it's another can of worms. Generally speaking it's better to work for foreign companies here.
        slekker 2y ago
- fvdessen 2y ago
  There's a general obsession on GDP and salary numbers that is a bit myopic. Let's say in country A people drop their kids by car at school, while country B the kids go by themselves at school by foot. All other things being equal, the higher expenses on gas and cars will show up as higher GDP for country A, which will in turn be considered 'wealthier'. But is it really ? Likewise for salaries, the higher number hides what it is expended for, maybe you'll need to expend a lot more to be able to live in a high quality of life neighbourhood.
  - bovermyer 2y ago
    That... is a fascinating way to put it. Huh. I'll have to think about that.
  - coreyh14444 2y ago
    Oh totally. Coming from the States, where our costs included two cars, healthcare out of pocket expenses, daycare, etc and coming to DK where, yes, taxes are high, but we have zero cars, zero healthcare costs, etc.
    - monssooon 2y ago
      if you consider tax of 45% "zero cost" yes...
      - rational_indian 2y ago
        My effective rate of taxation is close to 40-50% here in India. I doubt I get one tenth the benefit. Rampant corruption, abysmal infrastructure, no rule of law...I could go on.
    - Gibbon1 2y ago
      One of the owners of my company moved to France for a few years. Which was important because if he stayed in the US he would have had to get an outside job instead of working for the company. That would have been bad. It was all because child expenses and healthcare.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  What good is "more" money if you have a terrible quality of life quotient? I mean, do you feel your employers are exploiting your labor? Are you anxious about how your family will afford to send two kids to university? Surprise medical bills ruining you financially? Likely not... Perhaps this is an intentional tradeoff that in some way leads to trusting.
NotGMan 2y ago
[flagged]
- tryptophan 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - cess11 2y ago
    There might be a bit of synergy between immigration and the surge in international trade they've had of late. https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/emner/oekonomi/betalingsbalance-og-udenrigshandel/detaljeret-import-og-eksport https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/emner/oekonomi/betalingsbala...
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    I don't think it has anything to do with race. White immigrants from the US would be just as disruptive because the US is a low-trust, high-inequality society.
- krona 2y ago
  Denmark is one of the few countries that actually has targets for integration, not just immigration. It's extremely draconian and I'm surprised (actually, not surprised) the article doesn't mention it. See, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_residential_area_(Denmark) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_residential_area_(D...
  - pama 2y ago
    The article does discuss these.
  - dojitza1 2y ago
    Slow integration actually being enforced by uncomfortable laws is the only way we get to enjoy diversity and multiculturalism. The friction is otherwise too large. I would personally like an utopia where we all magically get along no matter the culture, race, ethnicity etc. but the real world is a different pair of shoes.
throwaway22032 2y ago
The common factor in all high trust societies seems to be that they are culturally homogenous.
- snowpid 2y ago
  Denmark is not culturally homogenous and it wasnt histocally.
  - mycologos 2y ago
    Denmark values cultural homogeneity enough to mandate that children over the age of one in high-immigrant areas formally designated as ghettoes attend 25 hours per week of public daycare including instruction in "democracy, equality and major Danish holidays such as Christmas" under the threat of losing government benefits [1]. By western standards, this strikes me as a strong commitment to cultural homogeneity. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1IT1EN/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1IT1EN/
    - pvdoom 2y ago
      Nah, thats not Denmark, thats a particular racist government
      - dagw 2y ago
        Voted in by the Danish people.
    - snowpid 2y ago
      Let me introduce into the concept of the national minority of Germans and also Jews live in Danmark. (Both aren't typical Danish culture). Do you know the concept of national minorities?
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Denmark? Culturally homogeneous? I'm not sure you've actually been to Denmark. Culturally homogeneous is not what I would call it.
koolba 2y ago
> Adults who trust each other not to steal babies go on to trust one another around older children playing unsupervised. Such delusion to think we could have a society where people don’t steal babies the moment they are left unattended. I bet they’re not even worried about a passerby taking candy from them too.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  In the US leaving your baby unsupervised is likely to result in someone calling CPS and a bunch of trouble for you. So while the chance of having your child kidnapped is vanishingly small, there are enough busybodies who believe the chance is high to result in the same net effect: you can't leave your baby unattended.
  - GJim 2y ago
    That's a problem due to the American peoples acceptance of authoritarian policing; something that would be inconceivable in more enlightened countries.
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      In Germany you are arrested for home schooling. Different cultures have their flaws.
      - spython 2y ago
        Why would that be considered a flaw? The rationale behind it is the same as behind the inability to name your child XAe or any random assortment of letters – to not make the future difficult for your child, even if you as a parent might want it. It is also one of the last tools that prevents parallel societies from forming. Not that German schools are ideal - they are a bit stuck in the past - but the common experience they create in each new generation is valuable.
        wearen0tsame 2y ago
trelane 2y ago
This sounds a lot like small midwestern towns, at least a few decades ago.
- admissionsguy 2y ago
  Has it changed? My medium term goal is to move to a small town in a state like Nebraska. In my limited experience, I found the region as cozy as my current place in the far north of Sweden but without the humongous government.
  - trelane 2y ago
    I don't know. I phrased it like that due to lack of data.
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    Has it changed? Yes. I'd say it's like years being designated BC and AD. Small town midwest is now Before Opiods and After Opiods. Choose your future small town carefully, and don't be bothered by how many feelings you hurt. It's about what you want for you and your family. Not about validating a narrative. You really do want to stay away from certain areas. At least, that's how it is here in Wisconsin. Anecdata: One day my sister was taking my niece to school and my niece said from her car seat, "Look Mom! A dead body." My sister looked over and sure enough, cops and ambulance, and they were just covering the deceased. OD. Point of this story is not really that there was an OD in small town Wisconsin. Small town Wisconsin is where you'd expect OD's to happen nowadays. The point is my niece was so familiar with this kind of thing that she could spot a dead body at 4 or 5 years old. Not good man.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    > Has it changed? a-yup, sure has. I've seen it. Wages are stagnant and meth is everywhere. The smart ones left to chase jobs and the remainder who aren't hitting the pipe regularly are deep into MLMs. Everyone -- like, everyone -- drives trucks, and will probably never be able to retire because of it.[1] The remainder are getting older, more religious, more conservative, and more reactionary, and that translates to terrible schools and poorly maintained roads. The educated folks coming back from college look at that and, even if they can get jobs in town, aren't keen to live there. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-love-affair-with-pickup-trucks-might-be-derailing-their-retirement-plans-2020-09-23 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-love-affair-with...
k1ck4ss 2y ago
a perfect example of a society based on trust. the opposite example is one based on kinship.
incomingpain 2y ago
I've heard this a few times before. Admittedly I'm not that familiar with Denmark. Lets check out the livability. GDP is okish; has signs of foreign influence or some sort of financial crisis. 2.5% unemployment is fantastic. 75% participation and steadily climbing, elderly going back to work? https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2020/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2020/ Wow, only 5 million people? Toronto has more people. Though yes elderly going back to work. Central bank is very healthy. Interest rates went negative a little bit. Seemingly 0% typically? Hence the elderly going back to work. Their government didnt print a bunch of money? ~250% private debt to gdp is high, housing crisis? excellent balance of trade. !!! government debt to gdp is below 30% holy smokes! Big boost to military spending Household debts to gdp below 100%, but not by much. That's ok. 60% housing ownership isnt great. Housing bubble crashing most likely with high private debt to gdp, high rates. Likely priced their own people out of the market; forcing the bubble to crash. 55% personal income tax rate? Yikes! 25% sales tax, 22% corporate tax. Those are some insane taxes.
- vertis 2y ago
  Most of Europe has similar taxation. They get a lot for their money though. Public transport and health. I would live in Denmark in a heartbeat, have visited so many times as a digital nomad. But I'd have to go work for a tech company there or convince them that whatever startup I want to have a go at next is enough to be accepted by the startup visa (complicated). If anyone from Denmark or Sweden (which I love as well) reads this and wants someone with 20+ YOE in tech (programming, startups) do get in contact, my details are on my profile.
  - slekker 2y ago
    > Most of Europe has similar taxation. Countries like Czechia or France have lower income tax (5%-10% less)
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      France's top rate is 0.5% points lower. Denmark is average for the EU (much less than France) once you account for the employee taxes in France.
ronjouch 2y ago
Interesting, will read Gert Tinggaard Svendsen's research. French passerbys: for a similar study on why France is particularly lacking trust, see CEPREMAP / Yann Algan & Pierre Cahuc (2007) La société de défiance - Comment le modèle social français s’autodétruit. It's been too long since I last read it for me to be able to summarize it in English, so I won't. Here's the free PDF, in French: https://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf https://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf .
jayski 2y ago
I visited 2 years ago, it made me rethink everything I thought about society. The parliament has no guards, you can just walk in and talk to one of your representatives. Who BTW all biked there, evidenced by all the bikes outside. 95%+ of people look to be thin and fit. Everyone looks happy. A common misconception is that the Danes success is their system. I like how this article frames it around trust, because that is really the core issue. The system is almost irrelevant if you have decent,honorable people participating in it.
- fvdessen 2y ago
  You can have a system that produces decent, honorable people, and systems that do the exact opposite
  - jayski 2y ago
    true, but as long as we're talking about a democratic society. it would be improbable that kind of people decide on a counterproductive system.
monssooon 2y ago
Dane here: Left Denmark (DK) though. It is true that social security in DK is world best. And salaries are high compared to EU standards. Also that leaving babys on the street is probably safe. However the article seems to paint a rather rosy picture. DK has a dark side that no one talks about like "Jante Law", extremely feminine values (good if you like that - very bad if you dont), exclusive culture, very bad climate! Great place to work and have kids - if you stay inside and "play along".
- dkek 2y ago
  There's a very weird dynamic between Jante Law and Danish Exceptionalism. The fact that Denmark is at the bottom of the list for expats should give some perspective. It's a good country to live in, but I think a lot of these positive articles online about hygge, happines, copenhagen, benefits, trust; really avoid talking about the bad sides and how soul crushing it can be. https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2023/nordic-countries-40361 https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2023/nordic-count...
- kreyenborgi 2y ago
  The Law of Jante seems to have less effect now than when I grew up. People are much more encouraging of entrepreneurs in my little home town, and cheering each other on. Of course, there's still pockets of discouragement, and it's worse in small towns than big cities.
yetanother12345 2y ago
There's a thin line between trusting and gullible, and the difference may be hard to perceive for outsiders. Trusting and gullible alike also means easily exploitable, especially when coupled with hospitality which (believe it or not!) is, or at least was, a core value in DK. This whole line of reasoning has been very visible for the average Dane throughout the past 3-4 decades, as non-Danes have aquired larger shares of the general residency. The general rule of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" has not really been observed at all by a significant fraction of those visiting or relocating to the country. And the Danes do notice that, although a fraction of the populace choose to wear the rosy-coloured glasses at all costs because principle, culture, tradition (culture matters a lot in DK, the culture is fairly conservative even though most Danes will deny that they themselves are). The "trust" that non-Danish media likes to herald now is just a shadow of what it was, and it is steadily albeit slowly on the decline - especially in Dane-foreigner relationships IMHO. If you dislike the facts, feel free to dismiss this as anecdata.

49 points by PotatoNinja 2y ago

American in Denmark here: Yes, this is exactly right. The article covers a lot of topics but does a good job for the most part. The only thing not mentioned from HN point of view is that for tech workers, salaries are MUCH lower than in the US. My family's quality of life quotient though is very high. My kids (12, 14) have basically free reign of the city and we don't worry about them at all.

jeppester 2y ago
It has some times been a political theme in Denmark that we have to attract highly skilled workers and how we can do that best. Often the talk has been about for instance giving foreign workers tax exemptions. On those occasions I've often wondered how much of an impact the high trust and high social of safety has - for instance compared to salary. I'd imagine that it plays a big role in making people stay.
- intunderflow 2y ago
  The tax exemptions definitely help at least getting people to move in the first place and they were a big part in my decision (I'm on the Forskerskatteordningen) It's hard to put a value on a high trust high quality of life society without living in it first It's important that Denmark continues to attract high quality employers (such as in tech, big tech companies with American levels of pay). I think our work ethic here seems to help with that too (Danes seem to be 100% switched on all the time at work but will not touch it once the day is over). At least the impression I get, which is of course subjective and just my experience, is that US company owners consider us more or at least as productive as folks on the west coast.
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  This is generally an issue currently in the EU: Countries are stealing talent and letting residents pay. As such I myself exploited NHR in Portugal. But it is possible to both move to Hungary and Holland on tax reduction schemes. Personally, I hold the belief that these should not exist. They are a race to the bottom only the well educated can participate in.
bitschubser_ 2y ago
Living in a bigger small town in Germany I completely agree, I can’t imagine living somewhere where I can’t let the kids roam free… if I’m at the bakery I don’t have to lock my bike (and neither do the others) most of the kids at the local skatepark where I skate come and go on their own, on bikes or public transit and are unsupervised… but nobody would suspect neglect… if something happens we’ll help each other and the parents get called by their friends everyone looks after each other, the older ones don’t smoke their weed near the younger :D and so forth… oh and this is in a more “socially strained” neighborhood not the rich villa type of neighborhood
tossandthrow 2y ago
The salary component is interesting. While Denmark definitely has lower salaries than the US, it still has higher salaries than other European countries. I considered moving to France or the UK, but in both cases I would have to take serious salary reductions. Anecdotally, I know that Tesla Berlin hire SWEs at around 60k EUR. Offers from Norway and Sweden have been considerably below what the Danish unions report as average salary.
- intunderflow 2y ago
  Danish salaries, especially at US companies, aren't even that low, to take an example: https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer/locations/denmark?country=65 https://levels.fyi/companies/uber/salaries/software-engineer...
  - shiftright 2y ago
    That's more than double what the average company pays a senior dev in Denmark.
    - tossandthrow 2y ago
      The big difference is the stock component, which Danish companies usually does not offer. But DKK 1.000.000 a year is not far off senior roles. (However, a lot of roles are also much lower).
      - shiftright 2y ago
        Not too far of but 20% is still significant, and I think even so it would be mostly the top you can get from local companies. Even the Novo/Lego type companies are pretty stingy on IC compensation. There's limited upside, and startups are very far away IMO. You get some upside wrt work/life balance. But very limited flexibility in other ways. And culture-wise it's another can of worms. Generally speaking it's better to work for foreign companies here.
      - slekker 2y ago
fvdessen 2y ago
There's a general obsession on GDP and salary numbers that is a bit myopic. Let's say in country A people drop their kids by car at school, while country B the kids go by themselves at school by foot. All other things being equal, the higher expenses on gas and cars will show up as higher GDP for country A, which will in turn be considered 'wealthier'. But is it really ? Likewise for salaries, the higher number hides what it is expended for, maybe you'll need to expend a lot more to be able to live in a high quality of life neighbourhood.
- bovermyer 2y ago
  That... is a fascinating way to put it. Huh. I'll have to think about that.
- coreyh14444 2y ago
  Oh totally. Coming from the States, where our costs included two cars, healthcare out of pocket expenses, daycare, etc and coming to DK where, yes, taxes are high, but we have zero cars, zero healthcare costs, etc.
  - monssooon 2y ago
    if you consider tax of 45% "zero cost" yes...
    - rational_indian 2y ago
      My effective rate of taxation is close to 40-50% here in India. I doubt I get one tenth the benefit. Rampant corruption, abysmal infrastructure, no rule of law...I could go on.
  - Gibbon1 2y ago
    One of the owners of my company moved to France for a few years. Which was important because if he stayed in the US he would have had to get an outside job instead of working for the company. That would have been bad. It was all because child expenses and healthcare.
dfxm12 2y ago
What good is "more" money if you have a terrible quality of life quotient? I mean, do you feel your employers are exploiting your labor? Are you anxious about how your family will afford to send two kids to university? Surprise medical bills ruining you financially? Likely not... Perhaps this is an intentional tradeoff that in some way leads to trusting.

NotGMan 2y ago

[flagged]

tryptophan 2y ago
[flagged]
- cess11 2y ago
  There might be a bit of synergy between immigration and the surge in international trade they've had of late. https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/emner/oekonomi/betalingsbalance-og-udenrigshandel/detaljeret-import-og-eksport https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/emner/oekonomi/betalingsbala...
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  I don't think it has anything to do with race. White immigrants from the US would be just as disruptive because the US is a low-trust, high-inequality society.
krona 2y ago
Denmark is one of the few countries that actually has targets for integration, not just immigration. It's extremely draconian and I'm surprised (actually, not surprised) the article doesn't mention it. See, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_residential_area_(Denmark) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_residential_area_(D...
- pama 2y ago
  The article does discuss these.
- dojitza1 2y ago
  Slow integration actually being enforced by uncomfortable laws is the only way we get to enjoy diversity and multiculturalism. The friction is otherwise too large. I would personally like an utopia where we all magically get along no matter the culture, race, ethnicity etc. but the real world is a different pair of shoes.

throwaway22032 2y ago

The common factor in all high trust societies seems to be that they are culturally homogenous.

snowpid 2y ago
Denmark is not culturally homogenous and it wasnt histocally.
- mycologos 2y ago
  Denmark values cultural homogeneity enough to mandate that children over the age of one in high-immigrant areas formally designated as ghettoes attend 25 hours per week of public daycare including instruction in "democracy, equality and major Danish holidays such as Christmas" under the threat of losing government benefits [1]. By western standards, this strikes me as a strong commitment to cultural homogeneity. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1IT1EN/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1IT1EN/
  - pvdoom 2y ago
    Nah, thats not Denmark, thats a particular racist government
    - dagw 2y ago
      Voted in by the Danish people.
  - snowpid 2y ago
    Let me introduce into the concept of the national minority of Germans and also Jews live in Danmark. (Both aren't typical Danish culture). Do you know the concept of national minorities?
bilbo0s 2y ago
Denmark? Culturally homogeneous? I'm not sure you've actually been to Denmark. Culturally homogeneous is not what I would call it.

koolba 2y ago

> Adults who trust each other not to steal babies go on to trust one another around older children playing unsupervised. Such delusion to think we could have a society where people don’t steal babies the moment they are left unattended. I bet they’re not even worried about a passerby taking candy from them too.

AlexandrB 2y ago
In the US leaving your baby unsupervised is likely to result in someone calling CPS and a bunch of trouble for you. So while the chance of having your child kidnapped is vanishingly small, there are enough busybodies who believe the chance is high to result in the same net effect: you can't leave your baby unattended.
- GJim 2y ago
  That's a problem due to the American peoples acceptance of authoritarian policing; something that would be inconceivable in more enlightened countries.
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    In Germany you are arrested for home schooling. Different cultures have their flaws.
    - spython 2y ago
      Why would that be considered a flaw? The rationale behind it is the same as behind the inability to name your child XAe or any random assortment of letters – to not make the future difficult for your child, even if you as a parent might want it. It is also one of the last tools that prevents parallel societies from forming. Not that German schools are ideal - they are a bit stuck in the past - but the common experience they create in each new generation is valuable.
      - wearen0tsame 2y ago

trelane 2y ago

This sounds a lot like small midwestern towns, at least a few decades ago.

admissionsguy 2y ago
Has it changed? My medium term goal is to move to a small town in a state like Nebraska. In my limited experience, I found the region as cozy as my current place in the far north of Sweden but without the humongous government.
- trelane 2y ago
  I don't know. I phrased it like that due to lack of data.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Has it changed? Yes. I'd say it's like years being designated BC and AD. Small town midwest is now Before Opiods and After Opiods. Choose your future small town carefully, and don't be bothered by how many feelings you hurt. It's about what you want for you and your family. Not about validating a narrative. You really do want to stay away from certain areas. At least, that's how it is here in Wisconsin. Anecdata: One day my sister was taking my niece to school and my niece said from her car seat, "Look Mom! A dead body." My sister looked over and sure enough, cops and ambulance, and they were just covering the deceased. OD. Point of this story is not really that there was an OD in small town Wisconsin. Small town Wisconsin is where you'd expect OD's to happen nowadays. The point is my niece was so familiar with this kind of thing that she could spot a dead body at 4 or 5 years old. Not good man.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  > Has it changed? a-yup, sure has. I've seen it. Wages are stagnant and meth is everywhere. The smart ones left to chase jobs and the remainder who aren't hitting the pipe regularly are deep into MLMs. Everyone -- like, everyone -- drives trucks, and will probably never be able to retire because of it.[1] The remainder are getting older, more religious, more conservative, and more reactionary, and that translates to terrible schools and poorly maintained roads. The educated folks coming back from college look at that and, even if they can get jobs in town, aren't keen to live there. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-love-affair-with-pickup-trucks-might-be-derailing-their-retirement-plans-2020-09-23 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-love-affair-with...

k1ck4ss 2y ago

a perfect example of a society based on trust. the opposite example is one based on kinship.

incomingpain 2y ago

I've heard this a few times before. Admittedly I'm not that familiar with Denmark. Lets check out the livability. GDP is okish; has signs of foreign influence or some sort of financial crisis. 2.5% unemployment is fantastic. 75% participation and steadily climbing, elderly going back to work? https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2020/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2020/ Wow, only 5 million people? Toronto has more people. Though yes elderly going back to work. Central bank is very healthy. Interest rates went negative a little bit. Seemingly 0% typically? Hence the elderly going back to work. Their government didnt print a bunch of money? ~250% private debt to gdp is high, housing crisis? excellent balance of trade. !!! government debt to gdp is below 30% holy smokes! Big boost to military spending Household debts to gdp below 100%, but not by much. That's ok. 60% housing ownership isnt great. Housing bubble crashing most likely with high private debt to gdp, high rates. Likely priced their own people out of the market; forcing the bubble to crash. 55% personal income tax rate? Yikes! 25% sales tax, 22% corporate tax. Those are some insane taxes.

vertis 2y ago
Most of Europe has similar taxation. They get a lot for their money though. Public transport and health. I would live in Denmark in a heartbeat, have visited so many times as a digital nomad. But I'd have to go work for a tech company there or convince them that whatever startup I want to have a go at next is enough to be accepted by the startup visa (complicated). If anyone from Denmark or Sweden (which I love as well) reads this and wants someone with 20+ YOE in tech (programming, startups) do get in contact, my details are on my profile.
- slekker 2y ago
  > Most of Europe has similar taxation. Countries like Czechia or France have lower income tax (5%-10% less)
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    France's top rate is 0.5% points lower. Denmark is average for the EU (much less than France) once you account for the employee taxes in France.

ronjouch 2y ago

Interesting, will read Gert Tinggaard Svendsen's research. French passerbys: for a similar study on why France is particularly lacking trust, see CEPREMAP / Yann Algan & Pierre Cahuc (2007) La société de défiance - Comment le modèle social français s’autodétruit. It's been too long since I last read it for me to be able to summarize it in English, so I won't. Here's the free PDF, in French: https://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf https://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf .

jayski 2y ago

I visited 2 years ago, it made me rethink everything I thought about society. The parliament has no guards, you can just walk in and talk to one of your representatives. Who BTW all biked there, evidenced by all the bikes outside. 95%+ of people look to be thin and fit. Everyone looks happy. A common misconception is that the Danes success is their system. I like how this article frames it around trust, because that is really the core issue. The system is almost irrelevant if you have decent,honorable people participating in it.

fvdessen 2y ago
You can have a system that produces decent, honorable people, and systems that do the exact opposite
- jayski 2y ago
  true, but as long as we're talking about a democratic society. it would be improbable that kind of people decide on a counterproductive system.

monssooon 2y ago

Dane here: Left Denmark (DK) though. It is true that social security in DK is world best. And salaries are high compared to EU standards. Also that leaving babys on the street is probably safe. However the article seems to paint a rather rosy picture. DK has a dark side that no one talks about like "Jante Law", extremely feminine values (good if you like that - very bad if you dont), exclusive culture, very bad climate! Great place to work and have kids - if you stay inside and "play along".

dkek 2y ago
There's a very weird dynamic between Jante Law and Danish Exceptionalism. The fact that Denmark is at the bottom of the list for expats should give some perspective. It's a good country to live in, but I think a lot of these positive articles online about hygge, happines, copenhagen, benefits, trust; really avoid talking about the bad sides and how soul crushing it can be. https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2023/nordic-countries-40361 https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2023/nordic-count...
kreyenborgi 2y ago
The Law of Jante seems to have less effect now than when I grew up. People are much more encouraging of entrepreneurs in my little home town, and cheering each other on. Of course, there's still pockets of discouragement, and it's worse in small towns than big cities.

yetanother12345 2y ago

There's a thin line between trusting and gullible, and the difference may be hard to perceive for outsiders. Trusting and gullible alike also means easily exploitable, especially when coupled with hospitality which (believe it or not!) is, or at least was, a core value in DK. This whole line of reasoning has been very visible for the average Dane throughout the past 3-4 decades, as non-Danes have aquired larger shares of the general residency. The general rule of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" has not really been observed at all by a significant fraction of those visiting or relocating to the country. And the Danes do notice that, although a fraction of the populace choose to wear the rosy-coloured glasses at all costs because principle, culture, tradition (culture matters a lot in DK, the culture is fairly conservative even though most Danes will deny that they themselves are). The "trust" that non-Danish media likes to herald now is just a shadow of what it was, and it is steadily albeit slowly on the decline - especially in Dane-foreigner relationships IMHO. If you dislike the facts, feel free to dismiss this as anecdata.