7 ms·

Emory Awards, Then Suspends Students Behind Study-Aide App

59 points by lalaland1125 2y ago

chx 2y ago
This is somewhat outdated. Friday the judge ruled the suit can not continue anonymously. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.gand.329575/gov.uscourts.gand.329575.13.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.gand.32... > The Court does not intend for this determination to suggest that all information in this case will or should necessarily be made public. Indeed, there are other ways to protect specific information in litigation. See, e.g., Fed. R. Civ. P. 26(c) (allowing for protective orders for “protect[ing] a party or person from annoyance, embarrassment, oppression, or undue burden or expense” upon a showing of “good cause”). The fact that these other means exist and are—in the Court’s view—better suited to address Plaintiff’s instant concerns also indicates that Plaintiff proceeding anonymously is not required to achieve the protection he seeks. Thus, the Court makes clear that while it will not allow Plaintiff to proceed anonymously And then indeed he refilled and so his name is now known https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24676044-16 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24676044-16 Reading the lawsuit it seems another student, who apparently coded the thing connected Canvas to Eightball and that's what this whole thing is about. The lawsuit alleges Plaintiff had no idea this happened.
black_13 2y ago
[dead]
ken47 2y ago
Tangential but, why shouldn't universities be afraid? The value of higher education for many subjects is existentially threatened by AI. In 10-20 years, it's not unrealistic that the only justifiable subset of subjects will be those whose practitioners cannot be replaced by AI.
- wyldfire 2y ago
  The pedagogy needs to change. Some coursework should embrace new tools and focus on how to be effective while using them. And some changes should take place to the balance of exams, writing assignments, projects, presentations to reflect an honest evaluation of the student.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  People said the same thing about the internet and the "highway of information" and see how that turned out. The value of a College Degree isn't the content alone, but the mental models that are taught. That's why it's used as a credentialing process.
  - blizdiddy 2y ago
    As someone who earns more than my degree-holding parents through self-taught skills from the internet, AI learning seems to have a bright future.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      And statistically speaking, how many degree holders versus non-degree holders end up with 6 figure jobs? I'm not denying that you can't self learn, but most people don't have the discipline and drive needed to reach that place. Nor will the self learner pass the hiring bar for a junior role in 2024 anymore. Non-traditional college education (eg. low cost online education, expanded community college access, asynchronous learning, etc) is a happy medium and was in fact the norm for college education in the US throughout much of the 20th century (the normalization of the residential dorm model is a newish innovation - most students were historically commuter students from the early 20th century with CUNY all the way to the CSUs and UC extensions of the late 20th century). Programs like ASU or OSU's online BSCS are a better middle ground.
    - croes 2y ago
      If you are sick, do you visit a doctor or the guy who taught himself through the internet? If you cross a bridge do you have the same kind of trust in its stability if it's constructed and inspected by engineers with a college degree or some guys who played bridge builder?
      - fragmede 2y ago
        both of those you can't, because of government regulations. But (at least in the US) you go to your smart friend who taught himself through the Internet unless you're lucky enough to have actual doctor friend before you step foot in a doctor's office for anything weird because otherwise it's a waste of a copay. If I go to the doctor who went to doctor school and say I have this and that, they're gonna run some random tests and then you have to go back in a second time to run more tests. If you go into the office advocating for specific tests you want run, with scientific papers as reasons for wanting them run, then you'll get the tests you need the first time around, with informative results (positive or negative or wherever you are on the scale) in fewer visits than if you didn't ask your smart friend. If you go into a specialist doctor's office without having a list of questions to ask, for your problem, you're not getting good value for your time/money. Covid exposed a number of shortcomings in the system, and if your malidy is at all weird, you're screwed.
- gessha 2y ago
  Remember that AI was supposed to be solved by McCarty, Minsky and Shannon in the hot summer of 1956.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
boooomshaka 2y ago
[dead]
calciphus 2y ago
So the business school awarded money to develop a morally ambiguous (but likely profitable) "study aide" app, and the school ethics board said that creating and using it violated their cheating policies. Sounds like the most realistic lesson that business school could have taught?
- crooked-v 2y ago
  There don't seem to be any indications that it's morally ambiguous. The university apparently got extremely upset that it connected to Canvas (the online assignment platform), but from the lawsuit filing in another comment, it only did that to pull (not submit) documents to turn into flashcards or whatever.
  - croes 2y ago
    Did it pull college course material? That could be a copyright violation. What's used as the backend AI? OpenAI? If then it's more free data for the company that doesn't value people's rights.
- benterix 2y ago
  Yeah, I though the same. These students will probably more careful in real life.
  - chaorace 2y ago
    Yeah, that'll teach them for teaching the wrong way
noitpmeder 2y ago
It feels like there are more specific accusations of misconduct against the student/app that are missing from the article... The university claimed it violated their ethics policies, but for what reason? Further the article states there is no evidence directly linking the app to cheating? It's a bit strange the student in question submitted letters of apologies... For what was he apologizing for? Feels like there are some details missing.
- squirtle24 2y ago
  My guess - the app's users uploading university course material to a third party is likely a violation of school rules. Emory IT disabled the button to generate Canvas access tokens, and the 'workaround' the kid developed in response caused the IT folks to escalate. An LLM trained on course material could in theory be used to generate homework answers, so they wanted to shut it down before it actually happens. (Hell, the demo question on their website[1] sounds taken straight from a problem set) It would be as if the answer key to the homework leaked, except its for every homework in every course. The punishments are to discourage others from building clones. Though I suspect this is going to cause a Streisand effect. [1] https://www.eightball.ai/ https://www.eightball.ai/
- vsnf 2y ago
  I dunno, Universities can often behave like soviets. I was pushed through a university kangaroo court at Northeastern where they tried to (falsely) pin a charge of destruction of the university wifi network on me. They were threatening suspension and expulsion, I had to go to numerous hearings attended by high ranking university officials, and was definitely told that writing a letter of apology would incline the university to lighten my punishment. I fought my way tooth and nail out of the situation and was exonerated, but I can imagine a hundred reasons why any given student in a similar situation would capitulate.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > I had to go to numerous hearings attended by high ranking university officials, and was definitely told that writing a letter of apology would incline the university to lighten my punishment. This reminds me of the police telling people that writing out a confession will get them a lighter punishment.

59 points by lalaland1125 2y ago

chx 2y ago

This is somewhat outdated. Friday the judge ruled the suit can not continue anonymously. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.gand.329575/gov.uscourts.gand.329575.13.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.gand.32... > The Court does not intend for this determination to suggest that all information in this case will or should necessarily be made public. Indeed, there are other ways to protect specific information in litigation. See, e.g., Fed. R. Civ. P. 26(c) (allowing for protective orders for “protect[ing] a party or person from annoyance, embarrassment, oppression, or undue burden or expense” upon a showing of “good cause”). The fact that these other means exist and are—in the Court’s view—better suited to address Plaintiff’s instant concerns also indicates that Plaintiff proceeding anonymously is not required to achieve the protection he seeks. Thus, the Court makes clear that while it will not allow Plaintiff to proceed anonymously And then indeed he refilled and so his name is now known https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24676044-16 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24676044-16 Reading the lawsuit it seems another student, who apparently coded the thing connected Canvas to Eightball and that's what this whole thing is about. The lawsuit alleges Plaintiff had no idea this happened.

black_13 2y ago

[dead]

ken47 2y ago

Tangential but, why shouldn't universities be afraid? The value of higher education for many subjects is existentially threatened by AI. In 10-20 years, it's not unrealistic that the only justifiable subset of subjects will be those whose practitioners cannot be replaced by AI.

wyldfire 2y ago
The pedagogy needs to change. Some coursework should embrace new tools and focus on how to be effective while using them. And some changes should take place to the balance of exams, writing assignments, projects, presentations to reflect an honest evaluation of the student.
alephnerd 2y ago
People said the same thing about the internet and the "highway of information" and see how that turned out. The value of a College Degree isn't the content alone, but the mental models that are taught. That's why it's used as a credentialing process.
- blizdiddy 2y ago
  As someone who earns more than my degree-holding parents through self-taught skills from the internet, AI learning seems to have a bright future.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    And statistically speaking, how many degree holders versus non-degree holders end up with 6 figure jobs? I'm not denying that you can't self learn, but most people don't have the discipline and drive needed to reach that place. Nor will the self learner pass the hiring bar for a junior role in 2024 anymore. Non-traditional college education (eg. low cost online education, expanded community college access, asynchronous learning, etc) is a happy medium and was in fact the norm for college education in the US throughout much of the 20th century (the normalization of the residential dorm model is a newish innovation - most students were historically commuter students from the early 20th century with CUNY all the way to the CSUs and UC extensions of the late 20th century). Programs like ASU or OSU's online BSCS are a better middle ground.
  - croes 2y ago
    If you are sick, do you visit a doctor or the guy who taught himself through the internet? If you cross a bridge do you have the same kind of trust in its stability if it's constructed and inspected by engineers with a college degree or some guys who played bridge builder?
    - fragmede 2y ago
      both of those you can't, because of government regulations. But (at least in the US) you go to your smart friend who taught himself through the Internet unless you're lucky enough to have actual doctor friend before you step foot in a doctor's office for anything weird because otherwise it's a waste of a copay. If I go to the doctor who went to doctor school and say I have this and that, they're gonna run some random tests and then you have to go back in a second time to run more tests. If you go into the office advocating for specific tests you want run, with scientific papers as reasons for wanting them run, then you'll get the tests you need the first time around, with informative results (positive or negative or wherever you are on the scale) in fewer visits than if you didn't ask your smart friend. If you go into a specialist doctor's office without having a list of questions to ask, for your problem, you're not getting good value for your time/money. Covid exposed a number of shortcomings in the system, and if your malidy is at all weird, you're screwed.
gessha 2y ago
Remember that AI was supposed to be solved by McCarty, Minsky and Shannon in the hot summer of 1956.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

boooomshaka 2y ago

[dead]

calciphus 2y ago

So the business school awarded money to develop a morally ambiguous (but likely profitable) "study aide" app, and the school ethics board said that creating and using it violated their cheating policies. Sounds like the most realistic lesson that business school could have taught?

crooked-v 2y ago
There don't seem to be any indications that it's morally ambiguous. The university apparently got extremely upset that it connected to Canvas (the online assignment platform), but from the lawsuit filing in another comment, it only did that to pull (not submit) documents to turn into flashcards or whatever.
- croes 2y ago
  Did it pull college course material? That could be a copyright violation. What's used as the backend AI? OpenAI? If then it's more free data for the company that doesn't value people's rights.
benterix 2y ago
Yeah, I though the same. These students will probably more careful in real life.
- chaorace 2y ago
  Yeah, that'll teach them for teaching the wrong way

noitpmeder 2y ago

It feels like there are more specific accusations of misconduct against the student/app that are missing from the article... The university claimed it violated their ethics policies, but for what reason? Further the article states there is no evidence directly linking the app to cheating? It's a bit strange the student in question submitted letters of apologies... For what was he apologizing for? Feels like there are some details missing.

squirtle24 2y ago
My guess - the app's users uploading university course material to a third party is likely a violation of school rules. Emory IT disabled the button to generate Canvas access tokens, and the 'workaround' the kid developed in response caused the IT folks to escalate. An LLM trained on course material could in theory be used to generate homework answers, so they wanted to shut it down before it actually happens. (Hell, the demo question on their website[1] sounds taken straight from a problem set) It would be as if the answer key to the homework leaked, except its for every homework in every course. The punishments are to discourage others from building clones. Though I suspect this is going to cause a Streisand effect. [1] https://www.eightball.ai/ https://www.eightball.ai/
vsnf 2y ago
I dunno, Universities can often behave like soviets. I was pushed through a university kangaroo court at Northeastern where they tried to (falsely) pin a charge of destruction of the university wifi network on me. They were threatening suspension and expulsion, I had to go to numerous hearings attended by high ranking university officials, and was definitely told that writing a letter of apology would incline the university to lighten my punishment. I fought my way tooth and nail out of the situation and was exonerated, but I can imagine a hundred reasons why any given student in a similar situation would capitulate.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > I had to go to numerous hearings attended by high ranking university officials, and was definitely told that writing a letter of apology would incline the university to lighten my punishment. This reminds me of the police telling people that writing out a confession will get them a lighter punishment.