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Science fairs always have hints of fraud around them. Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from

Science fairs always have hints of fraud around them. Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. It’s not talked about much but has been an issue for decades. As a side note, the criticism around this incident seems to have some racial tones. It’s weird to see tweets referring to participants as the “Indian guy” and “Chinese guy”. Or is that just me?

tbyehl 2y ago
> Or is that just me? Click around on Karlstack some more.
throwawaysleep 2y ago
Definitely racial tones. Asian countries are frequently accused of copying, cheating, and stealing intellectual property from others, so it matches what people assume about members of those races.
- miningape 2y ago
  I think this comes down to "face culture" where its "better" to lie and be caught than be forthright from the beginning. The people used to / raised in face cultures think this is normal and acceptable behavior (because: hey everyone else is doing this I should too - If I don't I will fall behind), whereas those from more "honest" cultures tend to despise the behaviour as it makes work less trustworthy and tends to give an unfair advantage. Notice how the reason for and against doing this is the same: unfairness. Face cultures tend to embrace systemic unfairness as "fair" whereas non face cultures tend to call it as it is. What's interesting is that countries "with a face culture" tend to have higher levels of corruption and unfair business practices but also much higher levels of societal cohesion and trust. In other words, the more likely you are to save face the less likely you are to live in a democracy. And the less likely you are to trust institutions/organisations the more likely that they are trustworthy.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    There are plenty of examples in the recent past of high social trust countries without a face culture.
- jimmydddd 2y ago
  I know these guys were US kids, but when I was at university, it did seem that foreign students from large population and highly competitive countries seemed to not have the same focus on honesty. I mean, I saw US kids cheating, but some of the foreign students would actually laugh at you for not cheating. I just took it as a difference in culture. The same way what would be considered a "bribe" in the US would just be "doing business" in some other cultures.
luyu_wu 2y ago
Agree with the last bit. This is the perfect way to start racially stereotyping. For the first bit, unfortunately that's hard to control and is actually talked about quite a bit (speaking as a HS student). I would be interested in alternative suggestions to limit these advantages, but I don't think it's realistically possible.
_lvbh 2y ago
> As a side note, the criticism around this incident seems to have some racial tones. Noticed that as well. I feel like it has unfortunately become somewhat socially acceptable to be slightly racist against Indians and Chinese people due to a mix of politics and demographics in tech.
deleted 2y ago
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shrubble 2y ago
It probably does. For every solid guy from Indian background who was living in the USA that I worked with, there were always at least 5 horror stories involving e.g. some back office tasks that involved one of 3000+ people working in India (at a previous company of > 30k total employees). It's not fair to the guys in the USA for sure.
nullc 2y ago
I don't know if it's still the case, but decades ago when I was at ISEF (and somewhat fewer years ago when I judged...) the judges would get to talk to the students.
- geomark 2y ago
  I judged at some robotics competitions where we interviewed the students. It was usually immediately apparent if the student had not done the work, and as a result they would not receive an award. I think that's the only way to do it. The student must be able to describe the work they did. A fraudster might still get through with sufficient coaching.
deleted 2y ago
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deely3 2y ago
> Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. Do we have a solution for this, and do we need a solution? Lets go nuts, lets go hyperbolic: should we ban kids from learning from their parents?
- jjeaff 2y ago
  they aren't necessarily learning anything from their parents. their parents are doing most of the work.

tbyehl 2y ago

> Or is that just me? Click around on Karlstack some more.

throwawaysleep 2y ago

Definitely racial tones. Asian countries are frequently accused of copying, cheating, and stealing intellectual property from others, so it matches what people assume about members of those races.

miningape 2y ago
I think this comes down to "face culture" where its "better" to lie and be caught than be forthright from the beginning. The people used to / raised in face cultures think this is normal and acceptable behavior (because: hey everyone else is doing this I should too - If I don't I will fall behind), whereas those from more "honest" cultures tend to despise the behaviour as it makes work less trustworthy and tends to give an unfair advantage. Notice how the reason for and against doing this is the same: unfairness. Face cultures tend to embrace systemic unfairness as "fair" whereas non face cultures tend to call it as it is. What's interesting is that countries "with a face culture" tend to have higher levels of corruption and unfair business practices but also much higher levels of societal cohesion and trust. In other words, the more likely you are to save face the less likely you are to live in a democracy. And the less likely you are to trust institutions/organisations the more likely that they are trustworthy.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  There are plenty of examples in the recent past of high social trust countries without a face culture.
jimmydddd 2y ago
I know these guys were US kids, but when I was at university, it did seem that foreign students from large population and highly competitive countries seemed to not have the same focus on honesty. I mean, I saw US kids cheating, but some of the foreign students would actually laugh at you for not cheating. I just took it as a difference in culture. The same way what would be considered a "bribe" in the US would just be "doing business" in some other cultures.

luyu_wu 2y ago

Agree with the last bit. This is the perfect way to start racially stereotyping. For the first bit, unfortunately that's hard to control and is actually talked about quite a bit (speaking as a HS student). I would be interested in alternative suggestions to limit these advantages, but I don't think it's realistically possible.

_lvbh 2y ago

> As a side note, the criticism around this incident seems to have some racial tones. Noticed that as well. I feel like it has unfortunately become somewhat socially acceptable to be slightly racist against Indians and Chinese people due to a mix of politics and demographics in tech.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

shrubble 2y ago

It probably does. For every solid guy from Indian background who was living in the USA that I worked with, there were always at least 5 horror stories involving e.g. some back office tasks that involved one of 3000+ people working in India (at a previous company of > 30k total employees). It's not fair to the guys in the USA for sure.

nullc 2y ago

I don't know if it's still the case, but decades ago when I was at ISEF (and somewhat fewer years ago when I judged...) the judges would get to talk to the students.

geomark 2y ago
I judged at some robotics competitions where we interviewed the students. It was usually immediately apparent if the student had not done the work, and as a result they would not receive an award. I think that's the only way to do it. The student must be able to describe the work they did. A fraudster might still get through with sufficient coaching.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deely3 2y ago

> Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. Do we have a solution for this, and do we need a solution? Lets go nuts, lets go hyperbolic: should we ban kids from learning from their parents?

jjeaff 2y ago
they aren't necessarily learning anything from their parents. their parents are doing most of the work.