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> there are talks Media murmuring isn't anything legally binding. Russia have plenty of leverage to sue for peace. Namely that this is a war of attrition and

> there are talks Media murmuring isn't anything legally binding. Russia have plenty of leverage to sue for peace. Namely that this is a war of attrition and Russia has plenty of cannon fodder, exhausting Ukraine in the long run. If it means no more lives lost and the territory returns to pre-war borders, Ukraine would certainly sign without issuing debt. But the Russian leadership has decided that it wants to usurp territory and be the villian, in full understanding of the consequences. After WWI, Germany had to pay ~550 billion dollars after being turned to rubble. That amount compounded with the depression generated enough unrest and bitterness to give Hitler a willing audience. There really is no equivalence here.

croemer 2y ago
Germany wasn't turned to rubble after WWI, there was essentially no fighting on German ground, it was all in France/Belgium/Poland etc
- h0l0cube 2y ago
  That's fair. I may have conflated with WWII.
riehwvfbk 2y ago
They always start with the murmurs to prepare public opinion. And in any case, I think people really are failing to see the equivalence here, and it's scary. The suggestions to "just stop" (translation: "just lose") are actually serious. You'll have an economically crippled Russia with a wounded collective ego. Perfect setup for a rematch. Just like WW1 to WW2. But the normalizers have the majority opinion on their side at this point, and sadly nobody will stop them from making this tragedy a reality. So: there really is an equivalence here, and sadly history teaches people nothing. This time they are right, dammit. With any luck, our grandkids will live to discuss how this was the biggest geopolitical miscalculation. Don't think I have a point? Think about how everyone expected Russians to take to the streets and overthrow Putin back in 2022. The level of delusion is unreal.
- RealityVoid 2y ago
  I think your timeline is off by about 2 decades. The nightmare period of Russia is not the current time, it's the 90's. That's when they were most wounded and the had the most economic turmoil. And just as you wouldn't have stopped Hitler by appeasing him after he grabbed the power, you won't stop Putin by appeasing him now.
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    If we are examining the equivalence between Putin and Hitler, and saying (aided by the passage of time so we can actually think calmly) - pressuring Germany was what allowed Hitler to come to power, is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding?
    - RealityVoid 2y ago
      > is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Sure, that was my point. > Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding? It's... Hard for me to formulate a strong answer on this, but my impression is that Russia mostly did the wounding itself but the current average Russian probably blames either the reform attempts masking a power grab OR the west and the US for it's toils.
      - riehwvfbk 2y ago
        That's my point though: these leaders aren't aliens beamed down to Earth from space. They are the kind of leader a society elects as a sort of Hail Mary last ditch self preservation effort (yes, elects, in that they actually have support and are not usurpers). As for the second part, let me retell an anecdote. I was once at a party (in the US) with someone who participated in "helping" one of the post-Soviet republics with reforming their industry after perestroika. After too many drinks he began to brag about how "these corrupt businessmen thought they were hot sh... for grabbing all that stuff, little did they know they were just handing it to us". There were a ton of vultures feasting on the USSR's corpse. Now, the fact that it came to that in the first place is absolutely the Soviet leadership's fault. And it is also ultimately the current Russian leadership's fault that Victoria Nuland even got around to handing out those cookies 10 years ago.

croemer 2y ago

Germany wasn't turned to rubble after WWI, there was essentially no fighting on German ground, it was all in France/Belgium/Poland etc

h0l0cube 2y ago
That's fair. I may have conflated with WWII.

riehwvfbk 2y ago

They always start with the murmurs to prepare public opinion. And in any case, I think people really are failing to see the equivalence here, and it's scary. The suggestions to "just stop" (translation: "just lose") are actually serious. You'll have an economically crippled Russia with a wounded collective ego. Perfect setup for a rematch. Just like WW1 to WW2. But the normalizers have the majority opinion on their side at this point, and sadly nobody will stop them from making this tragedy a reality. So: there really is an equivalence here, and sadly history teaches people nothing. This time they are right, dammit. With any luck, our grandkids will live to discuss how this was the biggest geopolitical miscalculation. Don't think I have a point? Think about how everyone expected Russians to take to the streets and overthrow Putin back in 2022. The level of delusion is unreal.

RealityVoid 2y ago
I think your timeline is off by about 2 decades. The nightmare period of Russia is not the current time, it's the 90's. That's when they were most wounded and the had the most economic turmoil. And just as you wouldn't have stopped Hitler by appeasing him after he grabbed the power, you won't stop Putin by appeasing him now.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  If we are examining the equivalence between Putin and Hitler, and saying (aided by the passage of time so we can actually think calmly) - pressuring Germany was what allowed Hitler to come to power, is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding?
  - RealityVoid 2y ago
    > is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Sure, that was my point. > Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding? It's... Hard for me to formulate a strong answer on this, but my impression is that Russia mostly did the wounding itself but the current average Russian probably blames either the reform attempts masking a power grab OR the west and the US for it's toils.
    - riehwvfbk 2y ago
      That's my point though: these leaders aren't aliens beamed down to Earth from space. They are the kind of leader a society elects as a sort of Hail Mary last ditch self preservation effort (yes, elects, in that they actually have support and are not usurpers). As for the second part, let me retell an anecdote. I was once at a party (in the US) with someone who participated in "helping" one of the post-Soviet republics with reforming their industry after perestroika. After too many drinks he began to brag about how "these corrupt businessmen thought they were hot sh... for grabbing all that stuff, little did they know they were just handing it to us". There were a ton of vultures feasting on the USSR's corpse. Now, the fact that it came to that in the first place is absolutely the Soviet leadership's fault. And it is also ultimately the current Russian leadership's fault that Victoria Nuland even got around to handing out those cookies 10 years ago.