5 ms·

I sorta kinda agree. The US should really have returned to isolationism after WWII instead of allying with Western Europe in conspicuous opposition to the USSR.

I sorta kinda agree. The US should really have returned to isolationism after WWII instead of allying with Western Europe in conspicuous opposition to the USSR. On the other hand, the efforts of the USSR to agitate for communist revolutions in other countries made Western Europe – with weakening influence over its colonies – very nervous. But if Russia really wants to stop being a pariah it can just give up its childish posturing, remove its troops from Ukraine and open up its economy, to the benefit of its own people. Sanctions aren’t reparations

riehwvfbk 2y ago
Maybe you missed it, but reparations are already being enacted. Just today the EU approved giving Ukraine $3B that Russia's assets deposited in Europe earned this year. And there are talks about giving Ukraine loans that Russia must then repay.
- h0l0cube 2y ago
  > there are talks Media murmuring isn't anything legally binding. Russia have plenty of leverage to sue for peace. Namely that this is a war of attrition and Russia has plenty of cannon fodder, exhausting Ukraine in the long run. If it means no more lives lost and the territory returns to pre-war borders, Ukraine would certainly sign without issuing debt. But the Russian leadership has decided that it wants to usurp territory and be the villian, in full understanding of the consequences. After WWI, Germany had to pay ~550 billion dollars after being turned to rubble. That amount compounded with the depression generated enough unrest and bitterness to give Hitler a willing audience. There really is no equivalence here.
  - croemer 2y ago
    Germany wasn't turned to rubble after WWI, there was essentially no fighting on German ground, it was all in France/Belgium/Poland etc
    - h0l0cube 2y ago
      That's fair. I may have conflated with WWII.
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    They always start with the murmurs to prepare public opinion. And in any case, I think people really are failing to see the equivalence here, and it's scary. The suggestions to "just stop" (translation: "just lose") are actually serious. You'll have an economically crippled Russia with a wounded collective ego. Perfect setup for a rematch. Just like WW1 to WW2. But the normalizers have the majority opinion on their side at this point, and sadly nobody will stop them from making this tragedy a reality. So: there really is an equivalence here, and sadly history teaches people nothing. This time they are right, dammit. With any luck, our grandkids will live to discuss how this was the biggest geopolitical miscalculation. Don't think I have a point? Think about how everyone expected Russians to take to the streets and overthrow Putin back in 2022. The level of delusion is unreal.
    - RealityVoid 2y ago
      I think your timeline is off by about 2 decades. The nightmare period of Russia is not the current time, it's the 90's. That's when they were most wounded and the had the most economic turmoil. And just as you wouldn't have stopped Hitler by appeasing him after he grabbed the power, you won't stop Putin by appeasing him now.
      - riehwvfbk 2y ago
        If we are examining the equivalence between Putin and Hitler, and saying (aided by the passage of time so we can actually think calmly) - pressuring Germany was what allowed Hitler to come to power, is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding?
        RealityVoid 2y ago
        > is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Sure, that was my point. > Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding? It's... Hard for me to formulate a strong answer on this, but my impression is that Russia mostly did the wounding itself but the current average Russian probably blames either the reform attempts masking a power grab OR the west and the US for it's toils.
scotty79 2y ago
US should return to isolationism now. It never was an actual superpower. It just convincingly played one from a distance. Nearly every US engagement in recent times just shown how inapt US is at effecting anything anywhere through military action. US getting directly involved in Ukraine will just clearly show vast scale of US military incompetence to China and anyone who could still have any doubts.
- willcipriano 2y ago
  You are being down voted by people who lost every war they fought.
- 7thaccount 2y ago
  This is nonsense. The US advising Ukraine and supplying s limited amount of weapons has allowed them to hold out against Russia when they were supposed to collapse in a week. If anything, this war has shown Russia to be a paper tiger. They're literally resorting to WW2 era tanks at this point. Keep in mind that Russia and the US are both nuclear powers, so that complicates things as neither Putin, Biden, or Zelensky want nukes being thrown around.
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    Can we decide which is it? Paper tiger or "a threat to all of Europe so we should increase defense spending 50x"?
    - 7thaccount 2y ago
      Paper tiger compared to the US. Between the US's actually functioning carriers, F-22s, modern tanks, and finally functional JSFs...I don't think Russia's untrained cannon fodder being supplied by civilian vans is going to win out. That being said, the democratic countries in Eastern europe are tiny and most have a very small military presence. Without NATO, Russia could conceivably storm into those countries. I don't think there is a good answer here. Either let Putin steamroll a chunk of Europe or spend a ton of additional taxpayer dollars. A little googling suggests the U.S. support for Ukraine is 1.5% of our federal budget, which is crazy high if you think about it. Isolationism has its benefits and drawbacks of course.

riehwvfbk 2y ago

Maybe you missed it, but reparations are already being enacted. Just today the EU approved giving Ukraine $3B that Russia's assets deposited in Europe earned this year. And there are talks about giving Ukraine loans that Russia must then repay.

h0l0cube 2y ago
> there are talks Media murmuring isn't anything legally binding. Russia have plenty of leverage to sue for peace. Namely that this is a war of attrition and Russia has plenty of cannon fodder, exhausting Ukraine in the long run. If it means no more lives lost and the territory returns to pre-war borders, Ukraine would certainly sign without issuing debt. But the Russian leadership has decided that it wants to usurp territory and be the villian, in full understanding of the consequences. After WWI, Germany had to pay ~550 billion dollars after being turned to rubble. That amount compounded with the depression generated enough unrest and bitterness to give Hitler a willing audience. There really is no equivalence here.
- croemer 2y ago
  Germany wasn't turned to rubble after WWI, there was essentially no fighting on German ground, it was all in France/Belgium/Poland etc
  - h0l0cube 2y ago
    That's fair. I may have conflated with WWII.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  They always start with the murmurs to prepare public opinion. And in any case, I think people really are failing to see the equivalence here, and it's scary. The suggestions to "just stop" (translation: "just lose") are actually serious. You'll have an economically crippled Russia with a wounded collective ego. Perfect setup for a rematch. Just like WW1 to WW2. But the normalizers have the majority opinion on their side at this point, and sadly nobody will stop them from making this tragedy a reality. So: there really is an equivalence here, and sadly history teaches people nothing. This time they are right, dammit. With any luck, our grandkids will live to discuss how this was the biggest geopolitical miscalculation. Don't think I have a point? Think about how everyone expected Russians to take to the streets and overthrow Putin back in 2022. The level of delusion is unreal.
  - RealityVoid 2y ago
    I think your timeline is off by about 2 decades. The nightmare period of Russia is not the current time, it's the 90's. That's when they were most wounded and the had the most economic turmoil. And just as you wouldn't have stopped Hitler by appeasing him after he grabbed the power, you won't stop Putin by appeasing him now.
    - riehwvfbk 2y ago
      If we are examining the equivalence between Putin and Hitler, and saying (aided by the passage of time so we can actually think calmly) - pressuring Germany was what allowed Hitler to come to power, is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding?
      - RealityVoid 2y ago
        > is it not then true that this period where Russia was wounded and had all the turmoil is what allowed Putin to come to power? Sure, that was my point. > Second question: who did the wounding? Who do you think the average Russian thinks did the wounding? It's... Hard for me to formulate a strong answer on this, but my impression is that Russia mostly did the wounding itself but the current average Russian probably blames either the reform attempts masking a power grab OR the west and the US for it's toils.

scotty79 2y ago

US should return to isolationism now. It never was an actual superpower. It just convincingly played one from a distance. Nearly every US engagement in recent times just shown how inapt US is at effecting anything anywhere through military action. US getting directly involved in Ukraine will just clearly show vast scale of US military incompetence to China and anyone who could still have any doubts.

willcipriano 2y ago
You are being down voted by people who lost every war they fought.
7thaccount 2y ago
This is nonsense. The US advising Ukraine and supplying s limited amount of weapons has allowed them to hold out against Russia when they were supposed to collapse in a week. If anything, this war has shown Russia to be a paper tiger. They're literally resorting to WW2 era tanks at this point. Keep in mind that Russia and the US are both nuclear powers, so that complicates things as neither Putin, Biden, or Zelensky want nukes being thrown around.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  Can we decide which is it? Paper tiger or "a threat to all of Europe so we should increase defense spending 50x"?
  - 7thaccount 2y ago
    Paper tiger compared to the US. Between the US's actually functioning carriers, F-22s, modern tanks, and finally functional JSFs...I don't think Russia's untrained cannon fodder being supplied by civilian vans is going to win out. That being said, the democratic countries in Eastern europe are tiny and most have a very small military presence. Without NATO, Russia could conceivably storm into those countries. I don't think there is a good answer here. Either let Putin steamroll a chunk of Europe or spend a ton of additional taxpayer dollars. A little googling suggests the U.S. support for Ukraine is 1.5% of our federal budget, which is crazy high if you think about it. Isolationism has its benefits and drawbacks of course.