8 ms·
It was so bad, some arseholes started a war at the end of the decade.
by OnlyMortal 2y ago
It was so bad, some arseholes started a war at the end of the decade.
- h0l0cube 2y agoThe crippling reparations exacted on Germany were probably the greatest geopolitical miscalculation to date
- riehwvfbk 2y agoJust wait, the work to surpass this miscalculation is already well underway.
- h0l0cube 2y agoCurious to know what equivalence you’re making?
- riehwvfbk 2y agoOh I don't know, trying to make a country with twice the population, 50 times the area, and allied with a superpower a pariah state?
- RealityVoid 2y agoYes, I say it's time to return to peace for our time.
- umeshunni 2y agoI'm still confused
- riehwvfbk 2y agoHint: who (other than Trump) is most often compared to Hitler?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- paulryanrogers 2y agoPutin? What does being so obtuse add to the discussion?
- riehwvfbk 2y agoI thought it was obvious. Hey, someone downvoted me for it so they must have understood (that, or they reflexively downvote anything they don't understand).
- nerdponx 2y agoOr they downvoted you for being unconstructive and obtuse.
- h0l0cube 2y ago> so they must have understood If you aren't adding to the discussion (e.g., by being obtuse) that's reason enough for a downvote. And underneath it all you're quite brashly making a false equivalence.
- riehwvfbk 2y agoYou conflated WW1 and WW2 and yet give me lectures on style and judge whether the equivalence is false or not? There's a word for that. I don't think I am the one being brash here.
- h0l0cube 2y agoNow you’re strawmanning. Once I knew the argument you were making (which honestly wasn’t clear to me), the overall critique was correct and justifiable, but for one minor error (namely, Germany being in rubble after WW1). Just so you know, I didn’t downvote you.
- h0l0cube 2y agoI sorta kinda agree. The US should really have returned to isolationism after WWII instead of allying with Western Europe in conspicuous opposition to the USSR. On the other hand, the efforts of the USSR to agitate for communist revolutions in other countries made Western Europe – with weakening influence over its colonies – very nervous. But if Russia really wants to stop being a pariah it can just give up its childish posturing, remove its troops from Ukraine and open up its economy, to the benefit of its own people. Sanctions aren’t reparations
- riehwvfbk 2y agoMaybe you missed it, but reparations are already being enacted. Just today the EU approved giving Ukraine $3B that Russia's assets deposited in Europe earned this year. And there are talks about giving Ukraine loans that Russia must then repay.
- h0l0cube 2y ago> there are talks Media murmuring isn't anything legally binding. Russia have plenty of leverage to sue for peace. Namely that this is a war of attrition and Russia has plenty of cannon fodder, exhausting Ukraine in the long run. If it means no more lives lost and the territory returns to pre-war borders, Ukraine would certainly sign without issuing debt. But the Russian leadership has decided that it wants to usurp territory and be the villian, in full understanding of the consequences. After WWI, Germany had to pay ~550 billion dollars after being turned to rubble. That amount compounded with the depression generated enough unrest and bitterness to give Hitler a willing audience. There really is no equivalence here.
- scotty79 2y agoThe only miscalculation in WWI was that there wasn't allied parade in Berlin so Germans didn't understand how hard they lost. So reparations seemed like unfair backroom deal. This mistake wasn't repeated in WWII. In case of today's Russia, Ukrainian parade in NATO equipment on the Red Square should teach Russians clearly how hard they lost so their ambitions are crushed.
- riehwvfbk 2y agoYou do realize that this is exactly why Russia keeps fighting? From the Russian perspective, the collective West has taken its nice mask off and will stop nothing short of what you are describing.
- scotty79 2y agoYeah. And they are gonna fight to the bitter end. Nice mask goes off because Putin forcibly pulled it off. Remilitarized Europe won't get calmly mothballed. There will be a NATO parade on Red Square. If not in 3 years then in 20 when soldiers that Europe trains now reach middle age, positions of influence and feel like their lives weren't good because they were robbed of an easy win against Russia. Putin started this because he thought Europe got defanged and is no longer a monster it used to be. But its demons were only asleep and Putin just woke up all of them.
- riehwvfbk 2y agoGood luck with that? It would be a great way to follow up on the success that was Afghanistan.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- corimaith 2y agoThe Treaty of Versailles main problem was that it wasn't really crippling enough to destroy Germany but still enough to hurt. But most of that was at the chaotic early years of the Weimar Republic, which by the 1920s had stabilized the situation with American loans. It was the effects of the Great Depression and internal politicking that gave power to Hitler. The Nazis hatred wasn't directed to the West that enacted that treaty, it was to the east for the Communists and the "subhuman" minorities.
- Maakuth 2y agoGermany defaulted on some of the payments and France responded to that by occupying Ruhr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Ruhr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Ruhr). That took out a substantial portion of Germany's production capacity, but they were mandated to keep paying the reparations. The German state tried to keep up with that by printing money, triggering hyperinflation and paving way to the Nazi regime.
- Tanoc 2y agoWhen you combine that with Germany and Prussia's lack of access to steel it meant nobody could make anything whatsoever. The impact of not being able to import steel and French occupation of the one major remaining steelworks plant in Krupp is one of the handful of reasons why Prussia was dissolved and absorbed into the greater Weimar Republic nine years later. Prussia couldn't handle the debt caused from the two years of no steel and coal at a time where the republic was so poor they were asking the English and Americans for loans they knew they couldn't repay.
- corimaith 2y agoYou've got the dates mixed up. The era of hyperinflation and the occupation of the Ruhr occurred from 1921 to 1925, after which the "Weimar Golden years" occurred where the NSDAP were a small minority. The Great Depression occurred in 1929, which promptly crashed the German Economy. Unlike in 1921, this time the government chose austerity which caused great hardship and radicalized much into either the NSADP or KPD. The ruling centrists weren't able to govern without support of either, hence they planned to use Hitler as a "puppet" between the President and the Vice Minister. That plan backfired, although it is to note Hindenburg could have fired Hitler at any time.
- scotty79 2y agoThe miscalculation was than allies didn't do a parade in Berlin. This way Germans didn't understand how hard they lost WWI, so reparations seemed unfair. That mistake wasn't repeated on WWII.
- coldtea 2y agoHowever hard they lost, repearations would still seem unfair. They still thought their treatment unfair after WWII and all that parading - it took a decade of "training" to convince the Germans that they were the baddies in WWII (and a hell of a lot were never convinced). Besides the WWI loss they quickly attributed to "internal traitors" (Jews and leftists in general). Parades wouldn't change that.
- scotty79 2y agoNot really. If reparations were seen as a fee for remaining independent country they could be very fair given the alternative. Instead, after WWI it was pretty much business as usual and reparations felt like unfair toll of unfair, technical loss. Giving away half of Germany to the Russians after WWII sent the right message.
- coldtea 2y ago>If reparations were seen as a fee for remaining independent country they could be very fair given the alternative. That would be an ever greater insult. Instead of merely unfair, they'd be seen as both unfair and insulting - and threatening ("Our independency is at their mercy? Fuck them at the first opportunity we get!").
- scotty79 2y agoThat level of insult seemed to work perfectly for Germany and Japan after WW2. Look how polite they are after occupation and giving away half of the country to Russians.
- 2y ago