2 ms·

I don't mind downmods on political subjects (too much), which are matters of opinion to a degree. But when I correct somebody's laughable mistakes, please eithe

I don't mind downmods on political subjects (too much), which are matters of opinion to a degree. But when I correct somebody's laughable mistakes, please either correct me in writing or leave it alone. Thanks.

dcurtis 18y ago
I am pretty sure it was your tone.
- mynameishere 18y ago
  Java is a whipping boy, and I also have my problems with it, but one of its minor strengths is that it is clean enough for a teaching language (especially for total neophytes). Here is the much lambasted manner of outputting: System.out.println("Hello world"); ...in fact, this is well organized. "System" is a namespace. "out" is a static variable. "println" is a static function. "Hello world" is a String. These things all exist in an orderly world. A professor could explain a lot of key elements of language design with that one line. What's this: print("Hello world") ...it's shorthand for much the same. Easier? Yep. But it's glossing over a lot of details that students need to know. So when you come at it from a teaching angle, you're maybe making a mistake. Python/Ruby/LISP all have their WTFs that will throw off students, even if they're all better languages than Java.
  - gnaritas 18y ago
    Java's a horrible language for teaching. If you think this... System.out.println("Hello world"); Is easier to understand than this... print("Hello world") Then you've forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Java's not even a good example of what OO is, and it has way too much syntax and special keywords (something like 50) for teaching. Python is a far better language for teaching, Smalltalk would be even better because it's much simpler, has only a handful of keywords, and a much more consistent and simpler syntax. In any case, students should begins with a dynamic language where they don't have to think about manifest types that they aren't ready to understand anyway. It's also much faster working in a workspace or REPL where you have instant feedback and can experiment without messing around with compilers.
    - pg 18y ago
      Then you've forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Not just that, but what programming should be like. Hello-world shouldn't need more than two elements.
      - gnaritas 18y ago
        I think some people just forget that the machine should be working for the human rather than vice versa.
      - axod 18y ago
        I think judging a language by "Hello-world" is a mistake. Sure, some languages have a fixed overhead for creating a program. Some have needless syntax fluff that doesn't do all that much, but it's actually a good skill IMHO to be able to identify and see through that fluff to the core elements of the code. When we pick up a book do we judge it based on the index at the back and the preface and the publishing info at the start? We probably just ignore those bits. I think in these sorts of classes it'd actually be a good idea to spend several weeks looking at other peoples code and analyzing what it does. Being able to read code properly is a really important skill I think people should master before they even start with writing hello-world themselves.
        baha_man 18y ago
        "I think in these sorts of classes it'd actually be a good idea to spend several weeks looking at other peoples code and analyzing what it does." I think that would just result in a lot of students dropping out. As a beginner, it's nice to get the computer to actually do something - even if it's just printing out a stupid message.
        axod 18y ago
        "I think that would just result in a lot of students dropping out." Good. Perhaps there would be less mediocre/bad developers around.
        18y ago
  - rms 18y ago
    >glossing over a lot of details that students need to know. If you're teaching them object oriented programming. Why would you be teaching beginners object oriented programming? I give the engineering programming classes at Pitt a fair amount of credit. Two semesters -- the first semester covers HTML as a reasonably useful introduction to the idea of structured text files, then Matlab to introduce if statements, loops, and functions in an environment with a friendly console. The second semester was C. Mostly everyone got it -- those that failed out of engineering didn't fail because of programming class. The classes were taught/conceived by a professor whose primary research interest is engineering education.
  - marius 18y ago
    <pedant mode> java.lang.System is class, not a namespace (although classes in Java are overloaded to function as namespaces as well as modules and data type definitions). println() is not a static method, but an instance method of the java.io.PrintStream class. out is a static variable in the System class of type PrintStream which refers to an instance of that class, on which we invoke the method println(). </pedant mode> ...which is a lot to demand of a beginner to understand in his very first program. I'm self-taught myself, and for me, having a humanities background, C/assembly and Scheme was a perfect combination for understanding both how computers actually work and what computation is all about (to the extent that I understand either!). I think Java is a nice language in many ways, but I think its dominant position as a teaching language is due to market demand more than any inherent suitability for that role.
  - ii 18y ago
    In Python you can always do: import sys sys.stdout.write("Hello world!\n") if you really need this level of detail as a teacher.

dcurtis 18y ago

I am pretty sure it was your tone.

mynameishere 18y ago
Java is a whipping boy, and I also have my problems with it, but one of its minor strengths is that it is clean enough for a teaching language (especially for total neophytes). Here is the much lambasted manner of outputting: System.out.println("Hello world"); ...in fact, this is well organized. "System" is a namespace. "out" is a static variable. "println" is a static function. "Hello world" is a String. These things all exist in an orderly world. A professor could explain a lot of key elements of language design with that one line. What's this: print("Hello world") ...it's shorthand for much the same. Easier? Yep. But it's glossing over a lot of details that students need to know. So when you come at it from a teaching angle, you're maybe making a mistake. Python/Ruby/LISP all have their WTFs that will throw off students, even if they're all better languages than Java.
- gnaritas 18y ago
  Java's a horrible language for teaching. If you think this... System.out.println("Hello world"); Is easier to understand than this... print("Hello world") Then you've forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Java's not even a good example of what OO is, and it has way too much syntax and special keywords (something like 50) for teaching. Python is a far better language for teaching, Smalltalk would be even better because it's much simpler, has only a handful of keywords, and a much more consistent and simpler syntax. In any case, students should begins with a dynamic language where they don't have to think about manifest types that they aren't ready to understand anyway. It's also much faster working in a workspace or REPL where you have instant feedback and can experiment without messing around with compilers.
  - pg 18y ago
    Then you've forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Not just that, but what programming should be like. Hello-world shouldn't need more than two elements.
    - gnaritas 18y ago
      I think some people just forget that the machine should be working for the human rather than vice versa.
    - axod 18y ago
      I think judging a language by "Hello-world" is a mistake. Sure, some languages have a fixed overhead for creating a program. Some have needless syntax fluff that doesn't do all that much, but it's actually a good skill IMHO to be able to identify and see through that fluff to the core elements of the code. When we pick up a book do we judge it based on the index at the back and the preface and the publishing info at the start? We probably just ignore those bits. I think in these sorts of classes it'd actually be a good idea to spend several weeks looking at other peoples code and analyzing what it does. Being able to read code properly is a really important skill I think people should master before they even start with writing hello-world themselves.
      - baha_man 18y ago
        "I think in these sorts of classes it'd actually be a good idea to spend several weeks looking at other peoples code and analyzing what it does." I think that would just result in a lot of students dropping out. As a beginner, it's nice to get the computer to actually do something - even if it's just printing out a stupid message.
        axod 18y ago
        "I think that would just result in a lot of students dropping out." Good. Perhaps there would be less mediocre/bad developers around.
      - 18y ago
- rms 18y ago
  >glossing over a lot of details that students need to know. If you're teaching them object oriented programming. Why would you be teaching beginners object oriented programming? I give the engineering programming classes at Pitt a fair amount of credit. Two semesters -- the first semester covers HTML as a reasonably useful introduction to the idea of structured text files, then Matlab to introduce if statements, loops, and functions in an environment with a friendly console. The second semester was C. Mostly everyone got it -- those that failed out of engineering didn't fail because of programming class. The classes were taught/conceived by a professor whose primary research interest is engineering education.
- marius 18y ago
  <pedant mode> java.lang.System is class, not a namespace (although classes in Java are overloaded to function as namespaces as well as modules and data type definitions). println() is not a static method, but an instance method of the java.io.PrintStream class. out is a static variable in the System class of type PrintStream which refers to an instance of that class, on which we invoke the method println(). </pedant mode> ...which is a lot to demand of a beginner to understand in his very first program. I'm self-taught myself, and for me, having a humanities background, C/assembly and Scheme was a perfect combination for understanding both how computers actually work and what computation is all about (to the extent that I understand either!). I think Java is a nice language in many ways, but I think its dominant position as a teaching language is due to market demand more than any inherent suitability for that role.
- ii 18y ago
  In Python you can always do: import sys sys.stdout.write("Hello world!\n") if you really need this level of detail as a teacher.