3 ms·

> But EU is in a different position, mostly oriented around trade, and notably lacking in security and military bodies. But the EU has absolutely stood up again

by 4bpp 2y ago

> But EU is in a different position, mostly oriented around trade, and notably lacking in security and military bodies. But the EU has absolutely stood up against US interests, especially their predatory corporations. I think this understanding of the EU's behaviour may be insufficiently cynical. There's one pattern in politics that is very hard to not see everywhere once you have been primed to, which is "high + low against middle": the faction that is in power allies with one(s) that is so far away from power as to never become a credible threat to it, in order to put the squeeze on a third faction that is actually a serious contender for the position of the first. A canonical example that's sufficiently historical that it hopefully won't be too incendiary was the practice of early communist states to elevate individuals of peasant/worker background into positions they were unqualified for, as in the famous case of Lysenko - here, high (party brass) supported low (peasants/workers) at the expense of the middle (bourgeois intellectuals, represented in that particular instance by academia, who could have been organised and experienced enough to orchestrate a palace coup). Within the US, the federal government/military/foreign policy complex and tech-based New Money are widely recognised as two distinct power centres, with it at times being unclear if the former can actually fully dictate terms to the latter. Under normal circumstances one would expect the former to champion the interests of its industries on the international stage, and indeed the US is known to have very sharp elbows in this regard (from the famous oil wars in the Middle East via the slightly less famous fruit ones in Central America to the backdoor arm-twisting in copyright matters). The picture for the tech industry looks quite different - far from starting a war or even merely successfully lobbying the EU to drop its regulation, the USG is looking away and whistling. As it happens, out of the four industries mentioned (oil, fruit, media, tech), the tech industry happens to be the one that is by far the most autonomous and misaligned with federal government interests (Apple randomly grandstanding on privacy, everyone wanting to keep their Chinese supply contracts and market access, general abundance of politically engaged progressives and libertarians...). Wouldn't it make sense if what happened was that the USG (high) actually gave the EU (low) a tacit go-ahead for their anti-US-tech measures, and perhaps even indicated to everyone involved that they may let them crack down even harder if the tech industry (contender for high) keeps falling out of line?

klabb3 2y ago
> the faction that is in power allies with one(s) that is so far away from power as to never become a credible threat to it, in order to put the squeeze on a third faction that is actually a serious contender for the position of the first. Makes sense. I’m sure it happens. However, it’s an advanced construct and just one out of several incentives in a complex system, so I wouldn’t necessarily blanket attribute it to explain things. That said I also think you’re right that the USG does seem less imperialistically engaged with tech than say oil. That could have other explanations, such as less cozy relationships around subsidies and historical geopolitical interest. I mean, I think it’s entirely possible that there’s enough inertia in these systems to explain why one looks different than another. It doesn’t have to be a delicately played 4D chess by a bunch of boomers who don’t even know what encryption is. Don’t attribute to malice yadda yadda. In either case, from my European perspective, I’m not looking so much what the end goals are for the Americans, but rather how the countries in Europe can stand up to geopolitical winds, ie protect their interests. And in my lifetime, there’s a noticeable increase in alignment and strength, at the expense of a (imo) much less harmful set of compromises between individual countries. It all depends on what are the hot issues of the day. When it’s pollution in the Baltic Sea, or the Greeks treating the euro-wallet as a gift card, then we were all like pissy siblings. But now when the issues are war (Russia), economic hollowing (China) or having big brother deciding what’s best for you (US - although this is old), it’s better to set the differences aside, and band together.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >or the Greeks treating the euro-wallet as a gift card You mean the Germans treating the Euro and ECB as a monetary vehicle to boost their economy and milk the periphery, side-stepping any "hard rules" imposed for others when it was convenient for them, explicitly carot-and-whiping the South to de-industrialize over decades, and then strong-arming the indebted states as a means to pad German investors by moving money from the taxpayers to their banks and investment firms, while buying state assets (from airports and roads to utility companies) for themselves (with a few bones thrown to the French)? At the same time imposing stupid austerity policies (against the advice of expert economists) that made recovery impossible and amounted to war-level destruction for the economies involved? All the while cheerfully reviving racist language and imagery (like "rats" in the european kitchen, and other such niceties, of which calling the southern economies PIGGS was among the most prominent).

by 4bpp 2y ago

klabb3 2y ago

> the faction that is in power allies with one(s) that is so far away from power as to never become a credible threat to it, in order to put the squeeze on a third faction that is actually a serious contender for the position of the first. Makes sense. I’m sure it happens. However, it’s an advanced construct and just one out of several incentives in a complex system, so I wouldn’t necessarily blanket attribute it to explain things. That said I also think you’re right that the USG does seem less imperialistically engaged with tech than say oil. That could have other explanations, such as less cozy relationships around subsidies and historical geopolitical interest. I mean, I think it’s entirely possible that there’s enough inertia in these systems to explain why one looks different than another. It doesn’t have to be a delicately played 4D chess by a bunch of boomers who don’t even know what encryption is. Don’t attribute to malice yadda yadda. In either case, from my European perspective, I’m not looking so much what the end goals are for the Americans, but rather how the countries in Europe can stand up to geopolitical winds, ie protect their interests. And in my lifetime, there’s a noticeable increase in alignment and strength, at the expense of a (imo) much less harmful set of compromises between individual countries. It all depends on what are the hot issues of the day. When it’s pollution in the Baltic Sea, or the Greeks treating the euro-wallet as a gift card, then we were all like pissy siblings. But now when the issues are war (Russia), economic hollowing (China) or having big brother deciding what’s best for you (US - although this is old), it’s better to set the differences aside, and band together.

coldtea 2y ago
>or the Greeks treating the euro-wallet as a gift card You mean the Germans treating the Euro and ECB as a monetary vehicle to boost their economy and milk the periphery, side-stepping any "hard rules" imposed for others when it was convenient for them, explicitly carot-and-whiping the South to de-industrialize over decades, and then strong-arming the indebted states as a means to pad German investors by moving money from the taxpayers to their banks and investment firms, while buying state assets (from airports and roads to utility companies) for themselves (with a few bones thrown to the French)? At the same time imposing stupid austerity policies (against the advice of expert economists) that made recovery impossible and amounted to war-level destruction for the economies involved? All the while cheerfully reviving racist language and imagery (like "rats" in the european kitchen, and other such niceties, of which calling the southern economies PIGGS was among the most prominent).