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>We're so far past it now, and we did it to ourselves No we are not, you are not forced to have a smartphone, your are still allowed to have sex and most democ

>We're so far past it now, and we did it to ourselves No we are not, you are not forced to have a smartphone, your are still allowed to have sex and most democracy's don't torture you for speak against it. Don't just fixate on the surveillance aspect in 1984, there's much much more in the book.

unclebucknasty 2y ago
>you are not forced to have a smartphone Yes. That was my point. We are not forced to (though life would be hard without one). As I said, we did it to ourselves. >Don't just fixate on the surveillance aspect I'm referring to the context of this thread, which is largely around surveillance. That, BTW, is also the context in which references to 1984 most often arise.
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elric 2y ago
You're effectively forced to have a smartphone. It pisses me off, because aside from the privacy aspect, it marganalises a lot of people. As with many things, how true this is depends on where you are. But many restaurants refuse to hand out menus, many places require mobile payments, gyms require apps for access, etc.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  Do they require payment before eating? If not, I'm sure they'd find a way to accept payment from someone who has eaten and has means to pay that don't include a smart phone.
- 1over137 2y ago
  Whoa, really? What country is that?
  - dt3ft 2y ago
    Sweden. Good luck living there without a smartphone.
    - nicce 2y ago
      It is not only about the smartphone but social media too, to be precise. You are less attractive, "odd" or "strange" if you are not there. There is huge social pressure.
      - hiatus 2y ago
        > You are less attractive, "odd" or "strange" if you are not there. There is huge social pressure Other people's thoughts of you are not under your control. That people feel pressured to be on these platforms says more about the company they keep than anything else.
        elric 2y ago
        What? Society moves in one direction, some people don't (can't, won't, whatever). Those people become marginalised as society fails to provide adequate alternatives. Reducing it to "the company you keep" and "feeling pressured" seems a tad simplistic.
      - 93po 2y ago
        If someone evaluates whether to socialize with you based off of this, and it's important enough to you to not have or carry a smart phone, then they're probably not super compatible as friends or a partner anyway
- BSDobelix 2y ago
  >because aside from the privacy aspect, it marganalises a lot of people. Why not go to the European Court of Justice? And I did not say that there are no parallels to 1984, but I would argue that there are more parallels to Lord of the (key)ring than to 1984 ATM. By the way, the driving force behind this law is also Swedish (Ylva Johansson), so maybe Sweden has some work to do ;)
orochimaaru 2y ago
You have to have a smartphone these days. All 2FA use a smartphone and Authenticator apps. Companies actively deprioritize human agents in favor of automated ones. If this comes to pass, you will live with the risk of your information being leaked out by government incompetence - which they will try their best to cover up and blame you. Edit: No power given to government rarely not become something grotesque. US social security cards were “only for benefits”, now they are some ubiquitous identity number. In recent times, Covid vaccination cards were supposed to “only a patient record” until everyone started demanding them. So if your information starts leaking out your “conformance” will follow one way or another.
- Tijdreiziger 2y ago
  You can use any TOTP authenticator implementation you want for 2FA. Recently, implementations for PalmOS and J2ME phones featured on HN [1], among others. Password managers such as Bitwarden or 1Password also feature implementations. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40279305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40279305
  - Teever 2y ago
    You've totally missed the point of the post you're replying to. How do I opt out of all of this bullshit? I just want to go back to paper forms and letters mailboxes and stuff.
    - Tijdreiziger 2y ago
      Uh, by just doing it? You can still file your taxes and apply for benefits on paper, if you’re so inclined. Banks and government departments still have phone lines. You can still send letters to your friends or call them on the phone.
      - Teever 2y ago
        Dude, restaurants don't have fucking paper menus anymore. And how am I supposed to pay for something if they don't accept cash? Like don't tell me that you can stil live life the old analog and paper way, you know that is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
miohtama 2y ago
> you are not forced to have a smartphone In most European countries, you are forced to have smart phone to access banking services, many other online services. Even some government agencies use WhatsApp for communications.
- crtasm 2y ago
  Do you mean there's banks that no longer offer a website interface to your accounts?
  - coderatlarge 2y ago
    At least one major bank I’m aware of in Asia does not over web based account mgmt. mobile or native app install only.
  - rolandog 2y ago
    Maybe it's not the case for all of them, but some portals require you to scan a QR code with your bank app, IIRC. Others require you to generate a token with the bank app.
  - miohtama 2y ago
    You need to have a smart phone, because the high fraud rate on web interface, thanks to high number of compromised Microsoft Windows machines. Android and iOS are sandboxed and cannot be trojaned so easily.
  - vsl 2y ago
    EU legislation mandates 2FA to access internet banking and confirm payments. SMS is insecure as a second factor and explicitly declared as inadequate by said legislation. I’m not sure if biometrics are required, but in practice banks don’t bother rolling out complicated solutions with tokens for the maybe two persons that at the same time don’t have a smartphone and are sufficiently tech-savvy to correctly use tokens. Hence de facto requirement of a smartphone for banking.
    - rmnclmnt 2y ago

unclebucknasty 2y ago

>you are not forced to have a smartphone Yes. That was my point. We are not forced to (though life would be hard without one). As I said, we did it to ourselves. >Don't just fixate on the surveillance aspect I'm referring to the context of this thread, which is largely around surveillance. That, BTW, is also the context in which references to 1984 most often arise.

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elric 2y ago

You're effectively forced to have a smartphone. It pisses me off, because aside from the privacy aspect, it marganalises a lot of people. As with many things, how true this is depends on where you are. But many restaurants refuse to hand out menus, many places require mobile payments, gyms require apps for access, etc.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago
Do they require payment before eating? If not, I'm sure they'd find a way to accept payment from someone who has eaten and has means to pay that don't include a smart phone.
1over137 2y ago
Whoa, really? What country is that?
- dt3ft 2y ago
  Sweden. Good luck living there without a smartphone.
  - nicce 2y ago
    It is not only about the smartphone but social media too, to be precise. You are less attractive, "odd" or "strange" if you are not there. There is huge social pressure.
    - hiatus 2y ago
      > You are less attractive, "odd" or "strange" if you are not there. There is huge social pressure Other people's thoughts of you are not under your control. That people feel pressured to be on these platforms says more about the company they keep than anything else.
      - elric 2y ago
        What? Society moves in one direction, some people don't (can't, won't, whatever). Those people become marginalised as society fails to provide adequate alternatives. Reducing it to "the company you keep" and "feeling pressured" seems a tad simplistic.
    - 93po 2y ago
      If someone evaluates whether to socialize with you based off of this, and it's important enough to you to not have or carry a smart phone, then they're probably not super compatible as friends or a partner anyway
BSDobelix 2y ago
>because aside from the privacy aspect, it marganalises a lot of people. Why not go to the European Court of Justice? And I did not say that there are no parallels to 1984, but I would argue that there are more parallels to Lord of the (key)ring than to 1984 ATM. By the way, the driving force behind this law is also Swedish (Ylva Johansson), so maybe Sweden has some work to do ;)

orochimaaru 2y ago

You have to have a smartphone these days. All 2FA use a smartphone and Authenticator apps. Companies actively deprioritize human agents in favor of automated ones. If this comes to pass, you will live with the risk of your information being leaked out by government incompetence - which they will try their best to cover up and blame you. Edit: No power given to government rarely not become something grotesque. US social security cards were “only for benefits”, now they are some ubiquitous identity number. In recent times, Covid vaccination cards were supposed to “only a patient record” until everyone started demanding them. So if your information starts leaking out your “conformance” will follow one way or another.

Tijdreiziger 2y ago
You can use any TOTP authenticator implementation you want for 2FA. Recently, implementations for PalmOS and J2ME phones featured on HN [1], among others. Password managers such as Bitwarden or 1Password also feature implementations. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40279305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40279305
- Teever 2y ago
  You've totally missed the point of the post you're replying to. How do I opt out of all of this bullshit? I just want to go back to paper forms and letters mailboxes and stuff.
  - Tijdreiziger 2y ago
    Uh, by just doing it? You can still file your taxes and apply for benefits on paper, if you’re so inclined. Banks and government departments still have phone lines. You can still send letters to your friends or call them on the phone.
    - Teever 2y ago
      Dude, restaurants don't have fucking paper menus anymore. And how am I supposed to pay for something if they don't accept cash? Like don't tell me that you can stil live life the old analog and paper way, you know that is quickly becoming a thing of the past.

miohtama 2y ago

> you are not forced to have a smartphone In most European countries, you are forced to have smart phone to access banking services, many other online services. Even some government agencies use WhatsApp for communications.

crtasm 2y ago
Do you mean there's banks that no longer offer a website interface to your accounts?
- coderatlarge 2y ago
  At least one major bank I’m aware of in Asia does not over web based account mgmt. mobile or native app install only.
- rolandog 2y ago
  Maybe it's not the case for all of them, but some portals require you to scan a QR code with your bank app, IIRC. Others require you to generate a token with the bank app.
- miohtama 2y ago
  You need to have a smart phone, because the high fraud rate on web interface, thanks to high number of compromised Microsoft Windows machines. Android and iOS are sandboxed and cannot be trojaned so easily.
- vsl 2y ago
  EU legislation mandates 2FA to access internet banking and confirm payments. SMS is insecure as a second factor and explicitly declared as inadequate by said legislation. I’m not sure if biometrics are required, but in practice banks don’t bother rolling out complicated solutions with tokens for the maybe two persons that at the same time don’t have a smartphone and are sufficiently tech-savvy to correctly use tokens. Hence de facto requirement of a smartphone for banking.
  - rmnclmnt 2y ago