4 ms·

When I grew up, during the Cold War, the US admired Athens, and ascribed admiration for Sparta to the Other side.

bell-cot 2y ago
Given that Athens was (usually) democratic-ish, vs. Sparta was a militaristic monarchy, and the Soviet block was very heavily militarized during the Cold War... Not an expert, but my understanding is that Soviet education & propaganda idealized Sparta. Edit: I was unaware of the US military admiring Sparta...but developing an admiration for the ideals of your previous #1 Enemy, whose nation collapsed from within...yeahhh. Perhaps a few service academy instructors need to further explain "Do Not Copy Losing Strategies" to their Military Thinking 101 classes?
- orthoxerox 2y ago
  > Not an expert, but my understanding is that Soviet education & propaganda idealized Sparta. Not really, the Spartakiad was named after Spartacus, not Sparta.
  - bell-cot 2y ago
    (Yes, I know about the Spartacus thing. In the bigger picture - he is a great individual hero. Though having your military idealize somebody whose uprising was brutally crushed in just 2 years might fail to encourage a victory-oriented mindset.) From a few quick searches, I'm not getting anything about Soviet views on Sparta - just crap about the US-based "Sparta vs. Athens" Cold War analogy, or Soviet takes on (modern) Greek communism, or Eastern Orthodox ties between Greece and Russia, or Imperial Russian views on the Greek War of Independence, or ... This being HN - there is probably someone who either knows, or is fluent in Russian to be able to effectively search on the topic.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      FWIW, searching for Спарта or Лакедемoн on https://diafilmy.su https://diafilmy.su turns up nothing (albeit a couple of Spartacus filmstrips), while searching for Афины does turn up https://diafilmy.su/7799-afiny.html https://diafilmy.su/7799-afiny.html . (I had wondered why there was a "Star City" filmstrip included in the search results; it appears to be because of a cosmonaut using a Spartacus-named fitness machine: https://diafilmy.su/uploads/posts/2015-04/1429074979_08.jpg https://diafilmy.su/uploads/posts/2015-04/1429074979_08.jpg ) Someone with better cultural knowledge will do better than I, but I'm getting the feel that the closest approach to Sparta was that the Soviets didn't gender-separate their scouting programs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvrS6z4tUtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvrS6z4tUtI
- eru 2y ago
  > Edit: I was unaware of the US military admiring Sparta...but developing an admiration for the ideals of your previous #1 Enemy, whose nation collapsed from within...yeahhh. Perhaps a few service academy instructors need to further explain "Do Not Copy Losing Strategies" to their Military Thinking 101 classes? The Soviet economic system is a sufficient explanation for their collapse. I don't think their admiration for (a made up, idealised) Sparta made a difference one way or another. And even if it did, we can't tell; no one ran a controlled experiment, and it's at most a very small factor. Compare: the Soviets also ate potatoes. But you'd be hard pressed to say that we should avoid eating potatoes.

Given that Athens was (usually) democratic-ish, vs. Sparta was a militaristic monarchy, and the Soviet block was very heavily militarized during the Cold War... Not an expert, but my understanding is that Soviet education & propaganda idealized Sparta. Edit: I was unaware of the US military admiring Sparta...but developing an admiration for the ideals of your previous #1 Enemy, whose nation collapsed from within...yeahhh. Perhaps a few service academy instructors need to further explain "Do Not Copy Losing Strategies" to their Military Thinking 101 classes?

orthoxerox 2y ago
> Not an expert, but my understanding is that Soviet education & propaganda idealized Sparta. Not really, the Spartakiad was named after Spartacus, not Sparta.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  (Yes, I know about the Spartacus thing. In the bigger picture - he is a great individual hero. Though having your military idealize somebody whose uprising was brutally crushed in just 2 years might fail to encourage a victory-oriented mindset.) From a few quick searches, I'm not getting anything about Soviet views on Sparta - just crap about the US-based "Sparta vs. Athens" Cold War analogy, or Soviet takes on (modern) Greek communism, or Eastern Orthodox ties between Greece and Russia, or Imperial Russian views on the Greek War of Independence, or ... This being HN - there is probably someone who either knows, or is fluent in Russian to be able to effectively search on the topic.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    FWIW, searching for Спарта or Лакедемoн on https://diafilmy.su https://diafilmy.su turns up nothing (albeit a couple of Spartacus filmstrips), while searching for Афины does turn up https://diafilmy.su/7799-afiny.html https://diafilmy.su/7799-afiny.html . (I had wondered why there was a "Star City" filmstrip included in the search results; it appears to be because of a cosmonaut using a Spartacus-named fitness machine: https://diafilmy.su/uploads/posts/2015-04/1429074979_08.jpg https://diafilmy.su/uploads/posts/2015-04/1429074979_08.jpg ) Someone with better cultural knowledge will do better than I, but I'm getting the feel that the closest approach to Sparta was that the Soviets didn't gender-separate their scouting programs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvrS6z4tUtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvrS6z4tUtI
eru 2y ago
> Edit: I was unaware of the US military admiring Sparta...but developing an admiration for the ideals of your previous #1 Enemy, whose nation collapsed from within...yeahhh. Perhaps a few service academy instructors need to further explain "Do Not Copy Losing Strategies" to their Military Thinking 101 classes? The Soviet economic system is a sufficient explanation for their collapse. I don't think their admiration for (a made up, idealised) Sparta made a difference one way or another. And even if it did, we can't tell; no one ran a controlled experiment, and it's at most a very small factor. Compare: the Soviets also ate potatoes. But you'd be hard pressed to say that we should avoid eating potatoes.