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Something that was not really approached in this article is the underlying assumption that "entrepreneurship is good" and the difference of culture towards that

by cauch 2y ago

Something that was not really approached in this article is the underlying assumption that "entrepreneurship is good" and the difference of culture towards that. Start-ups can be seen as the things that bring society forward, or the things that create useless junk and enshitification from bullshit-talkers who just want to make money. It's not 100% the first in US and 100% the second in Europe, but the balance is just different. I think that one aspect is just that US is more ok with bullshitters and con artists: they consider it's part of the game. In Europe, it's seen as immoral, and there is a fine line between "being optimistic while raising money" and "being misleading while raising money". Inversely, Europe does not have so much prejudice against institutions. Maybe it is again due to the fact that in US, they consider bullshitters and con artists as part of the game: they are expected to be either the exploited or the exploiter, so, of course, you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you can be exploited.

TulliusCicero 2y ago
> I think that one aspect is just that US is more ok with bullshitters and con artists: they consider it's part of the game. Startups aren't any more fundamentally scammy than any other business trying to get your money. Oh sure, some are scammy, but that's true for big established businesses as well.
- cauch 2y ago
  I'm not saying they are more scammy, I'm saying that the reputation score is computed differently in US and in Europe, and having a scammy aspect is penalizing the startups more in Europe than in US. You can start from exactly the same facts: - X% are scammy - Y% are bringing something great - Z% are bringing yet another useless junk in shiny paper that pollute and had bad side effect - W% are making new discoveries - ... In Europe, the first item will bring you -20 points, the second, +5 points, the third, -10 points, the fourth, +10 points, ... In US, the first item will bring you -1 point, the second, +20 points, the third, -5 points, the fourth, +5 points, ... So, at the end, the "goodness" of entrepreneurship is seen differently in the two sides. I don't think institutions or other business are less scammy, or even that they are seen as better in Europe. Simply, if you score different paths, in Europe, the "entrepreneurship" path does not look that better than any other path, so why would you choose it.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    I think you're probably just categorizing something as "scammy" when it's more about being unrealistically ambitious.
    - cauch 2y ago
      You are the one who started talking about "scammy". Look at what I've said, I've JUST said that US is more tolerant with con artist and bullshitters. I did NOT say "start-ups are con artist and/or bullshitter". What I mean is that US is less concerned to dodgy things, the more extreme being scam, the more benign being, for example, unrealistic claims. I'm just saying that the two are from the same mentality. In other words: people in US and in Europe are not judging positively the scammers, and people in Europe are not judging positively people that are being unrealistically ambitious, while in US, they tend to be way more forgiving. People in Europe are not judging positively people that are being unrealistically ambitious not because they think they are scammers, but because, culturally, it is not seen as something positive for the society. It's just cultural. The same way Europeans in US find it unpleasant when Americans are forcing themselves to smile at their customers when they obviously don't even know them and don't have a good reason to smile. And Americans are finding Europeans too cold when they are not smiling all the time even if they don't have a good reason to do it.
      - TulliusCicero 2y ago
        > You are the one who started talking about "scammy". Not really? You said "con artist", did you not? "Scammer" is a near one-for-one replacement, I said "scammy" because "conny" isn't a word. > I did NOT say "start-ups are con artist and/or bullshitter". This is absolutely the implication of what you said. If I say, "I don't know how I feel about Ted Cruz, I don't like voting for rapists", then I didn't explicitly say that Ted Cruz is a rapist, but that's the obvious implication. If you start talking about how Americans are more accepting of con artists while in the middle of an explanation of why Americans are more positive towards start-ups, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots in what you're trying to say. If your point was more broadly about dubious/unreliable claims, that's fair, but "con artists" is a lot more specific and critical than that, and that's what I was responding to. Anyway, you're probably right that Americans are more tolerant of dubious/overambitious claims from a cultural perspective. I'm not sure if they're more tolerant of outright lies though, I think most draw a line between stretching the truth vs breaking it in half.

by cauch 2y ago

TulliusCicero 2y ago

> I think that one aspect is just that US is more ok with bullshitters and con artists: they consider it's part of the game. Startups aren't any more fundamentally scammy than any other business trying to get your money. Oh sure, some are scammy, but that's true for big established businesses as well.

cauch 2y ago
I'm not saying they are more scammy, I'm saying that the reputation score is computed differently in US and in Europe, and having a scammy aspect is penalizing the startups more in Europe than in US. You can start from exactly the same facts: - X% are scammy - Y% are bringing something great - Z% are bringing yet another useless junk in shiny paper that pollute and had bad side effect - W% are making new discoveries - ... In Europe, the first item will bring you -20 points, the second, +5 points, the third, -10 points, the fourth, +10 points, ... In US, the first item will bring you -1 point, the second, +20 points, the third, -5 points, the fourth, +5 points, ... So, at the end, the "goodness" of entrepreneurship is seen differently in the two sides. I don't think institutions or other business are less scammy, or even that they are seen as better in Europe. Simply, if you score different paths, in Europe, the "entrepreneurship" path does not look that better than any other path, so why would you choose it.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  I think you're probably just categorizing something as "scammy" when it's more about being unrealistically ambitious.
  - cauch 2y ago
    You are the one who started talking about "scammy". Look at what I've said, I've JUST said that US is more tolerant with con artist and bullshitters. I did NOT say "start-ups are con artist and/or bullshitter". What I mean is that US is less concerned to dodgy things, the more extreme being scam, the more benign being, for example, unrealistic claims. I'm just saying that the two are from the same mentality. In other words: people in US and in Europe are not judging positively the scammers, and people in Europe are not judging positively people that are being unrealistically ambitious, while in US, they tend to be way more forgiving. People in Europe are not judging positively people that are being unrealistically ambitious not because they think they are scammers, but because, culturally, it is not seen as something positive for the society. It's just cultural. The same way Europeans in US find it unpleasant when Americans are forcing themselves to smile at their customers when they obviously don't even know them and don't have a good reason to smile. And Americans are finding Europeans too cold when they are not smiling all the time even if they don't have a good reason to do it.
    - TulliusCicero 2y ago
      > You are the one who started talking about "scammy". Not really? You said "con artist", did you not? "Scammer" is a near one-for-one replacement, I said "scammy" because "conny" isn't a word. > I did NOT say "start-ups are con artist and/or bullshitter". This is absolutely the implication of what you said. If I say, "I don't know how I feel about Ted Cruz, I don't like voting for rapists", then I didn't explicitly say that Ted Cruz is a rapist, but that's the obvious implication. If you start talking about how Americans are more accepting of con artists while in the middle of an explanation of why Americans are more positive towards start-ups, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots in what you're trying to say. If your point was more broadly about dubious/unreliable claims, that's fair, but "con artists" is a lot more specific and critical than that, and that's what I was responding to. Anyway, you're probably right that Americans are more tolerant of dubious/overambitious claims from a cultural perspective. I'm not sure if they're more tolerant of outright lies though, I think most draw a line between stretching the truth vs breaking it in half.