7 ms·

Which Electric Cars Have Bidirectional Charging (V2L, V2G, V2H)

58 points by teleforce 2y ago

kkfx 2y ago
The ABSURD thing is that while we have a bi-directional CCS (DC current) standard no one produce photovoltaic hybrid systems able to direct connect to a parked car. Hybrid p.v. use since some years 400V LFP batteries, the same 400V nearly all BEV use. A direct connection means that the V2H part is already "isolating" a protected home electrical "grid" from the grid home/p.v. side, so there is nothing special to do but plug the car. Following p.v. availability the car can chard without DC-AC-DC lossy double conversion process, with much less costly stuff in between like domestic storage, similarly can discharge to the home as needed. A simple extension to the home electricity storage piloted by the p.v. inverter/a home server. It's essentially already there p.v. inverter side since hybrid 400V p.v. systems are fairly common and it's similarly already there since most cars support DC-charging piloted by the charger connected to the car BMS.
Weryj 2y ago
Selfless promotion, since it's on topic. We're working to get V2G in the hands of everyone: https://www.jedlix.com/ https://www.jedlix.com/
- twarge 2y ago
  It may be on topic, but I'm not sure how you get to selfless if you're promoting your venture.
  - Spare_account 2y ago
    They probably meant to write 'shameless self-promotion'
    - Weryj 2y ago
      I absolutely did
- mdaniel 2y ago
  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jedlix.ichargesmart&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jedlix.ich... says "This item isn't available in your country (USA)" so I hope there are enough folks in whatever country you're targeting to make your shameless self-promotion work out for you
  - Weryj 2y ago
    Yeah, it’s targeting Europe.
user_7832 2y ago
Interesting seeing V2X on HN, given that I'm currently researching V2G academically. One thing I've found in my studies is that services like frequency regulation are often described as very helpful or apt for EVs, but online discussion doesn't seem to talk much about the different electricity markets or services. I wonder if anyone here with experience either from an automotive or from an energy side as any views or opinions they'd like to share? (If anyone wants to ask anything about V2G feel free to ask, though I am not an expert I'll try my best.)
schiffern 2y ago
I wish we had more V1G, aka grid-interactive charging. It's extremely unsexy, but upon further inspection it's surprisingly great. It doesn't add costly cycles to the onboard traction battery, but it still can provide similar grid services (virtual spinning inertia, demand response, distribution network balancing, etc). Better yet it should be a software update for every existing electric car, even those without bidirectional hardware. Ideally I could tell my car, "always charge to [40]% immediately, then charge to [80]% by [8 AM] [Weekdays]." Then the car automatically participates in a fleet battery scheme, earning me money overnight by providing grid services. Bonus points if it also knows that I have TOU metering, and automatically optimizes for minimum cost.
- labcomputer 2y ago
  > Better yet it should be a software update for every existing electric car, even those without bidirectional hardware. Completely agree with everything you wrote, but also: It doesn't even require participation of the car! Plain old J1772 already provides the EVSE real-time-ish control over the charge rate. Some charging stations already exploit this to split power between two ports. When one car is plugged in it gets full current. Upon detecting a second vehicle, the EVSE signals the first to reduce current draw (and it must comply). In other words, every EV can be grid-interactive with just a software upgrade to the EVSE, or, failing that, replacement of the (much cheaper) EVSE.
- mavhc 2y ago
  https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-go/ https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-go/ UK power company offering that, if you have a compatible car/charger they can control for you
- audunw 2y ago
  Our power company ("Tibber") provides this as a service in their app for a bunch of different car models. Until recently this just let you avoid hours with more expensive electricity. But now you get an extra bonus on top of that since it lets the power company provide valuable grid balancing services. It's not sexy, but it's also not that hard to implement so I suspect this will become commonplace surprisingly quickly. > It doesn't add costly cycles to the onboard traction battery I guess for many people, NOT using V2G will be a net economic loss. For a big battery, and with 20%-80% limits, we are talking about extremely gentle cycles. The degradation is likely a drop in the bucket. Battery degrades with age as well as cycles. So after 20-30 years if you haven't used V2G you risk having an age-degraded battery that didn't deliver its full capability in terms of cycle life. Or the rest of your car has degraded before your battery did. For LFP it's even more likely that V2G will get you the most value out of the battery. If you go through a charge cycle every day or two on a Li-ion, I suspect V2G won't make sense since you're stressing the cycle life of your battery. The problem is we don't really know how long modern EV batteries will last, so it's impossible to know what the most rational choice is. We also don't know what the value of a degraded battery is in 15 years, and what the cost of a new one is. Since the economies of scale around battery recycling will be so massive in 15 years, it's possible that you get paid a fair sum for an old battery, and that getting a new battery will be fairly cheap. Or maybe not.
RatchetWerks 2y ago
I feel that bidirectional charging is the EV feature that most consumers don't know that they want. My current vehicle is fine, but when I'm in the market. I want an EV/PHEV vehicle that has enough power output to entirely power up my home, and serve as energy storage for solar. It avoids the need for a IC generator, and a power wall. They are a powerwall on wheels. When then battery age out in 10 years, you swap the vehicle. Gensets and in-home battery storage seem very redundant, when a bidirectional charging PHEV can do both. I've entertained the idea of picking up a Prius and hacking the electronics to act on this.
- czechdeveloper 2y ago
  Vehicle by definition can't be connected to the house constantly. I can imagine this lowers need for house battery size, but not need for it's existence. House power consumption is very random.
  - adrianN 2y ago
    For many people, home power use its highest when they and their vehicle are at home.
  - KeplerBoy 2y ago
    Doesn't matter. Homes tend to need power when people are at home. The car is - by definition - at home when its driver is at home.
    - two_handfuls 2y ago
      The point is, during the day while you’re at work your solar panels have nowhere to send their electricity.
  - unglaublich 2y ago
    But when the vehicle is connected, the user is typically at home. So there's a convenient relation there. House power consumption is random because it's not designed to be predictable. It's trivial to have a washing machine and heating that prioritize energy consumption whenever the EV is connected, or grid energy is affordable.
iSnow 2y ago
Pretty sure this list is missing brands like VW who make cars that have V2H. I believe Polestar as well.
- jbellis 2y ago
  Also missing Ford Lightning. Weird list.
- gruturo 2y ago
  Especially as the Cupra Born (listed) is based on the same platform as ID.3 and ID.4 - maybe VW deliberately disabled this feature? Or is it just an omission?
  - iSnow 2y ago
    I think the list is badly curated, as there's also the Skoda Eniaq missing, which is also VW, just like the listed Cupra.
- emmanuel_1234 2y ago
  edit: none of this seem to be true, big-ass pickup trucks are just not popular in Europe. Isn't it for Australia only? Are those models even sold there? I know F150 are not sold in Europe because (I think) they're not road legal, because they're monstrous killing machine.
BurnGpuBurn 2y ago
Off topic, those prices omg, how the hell are we going to get to zero without 95% of the population just being too poor to own a car? No matter how great the tech is, this is one of those rare occasions where the price of advanced new tech goes up with time. I've been able to buy a new 150 euro laptop for decades now at about 10% the price of a decent one. Why isn't this happening with electric vehicles?
- lynx23 2y ago
  If I had to guess... Because EVs are still a luxury item. All the green-deal-EVs-are-the-future talk is basically hot air. At least in my circles, all the EV owners have medium-to-high income. Its a luxury. And therefore, prices are high, because, you know, customers can and should be squeezed to the max.
  - user_7832 2y ago
    The annoying thing is that there's nothing inherent about EVs that make them expensive/luxury. A budget EV is just as possible as a budget car, sure, the range may suffer (unless it's a hybrid) but it's technically possible. It's companies and maybe consumer preferences driving this. I'd guess luxury EVs just have a fatter margin.
    - infecto 2y ago
      It is a mixture that plays off each other. Consumers don't want small cars in the US and mid-size cars provide far better margin.
- throw383y8 2y ago
  You can buy EV for a few hundreds dollars (bike), cheapest Chinese cars are around $2k, European minis start at 10k EUR. EVs are actually very cheap as basic city car, but you have to leave out extra features like long range, bidicharging, heating... Zero emissions means much smaller car, not some monstrosity like 3 tons SUV ls for personal transport.
cheschire 2y ago
I feel like I must be missing some obvious thing because I simply don’t feel the need for a generator. Otherwise, why are whole-home generators so wildly popular, including so-called “solar generators” that are just batteries with crazy expensive solar panels and a convenient plug. And now this EV whole home generator concept taking off after the Ford F-150 Lightning made it well known. But I’ve survived multi-day power outages with nothing more than some flashlights, a camping stove and a camping heater. The cost of replacing my frozen foods is negligible compared to the cost of generators. What am I missing? Obviously some edge cases like CPAP, O2 concentrators, and other health things. But I have to imagine that is a small portion of the population compared to who’s buying these things.
- mrkurt 2y ago
  95 degrees, 100% humidity, and hurricane season.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    Also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storm
- thfuran 2y ago
  >But I’ve survived multi-day power outages with nothing more than some flashlights, a camping stove and a camping heater But why would you want to do that? Would you still want to do it that way if it were 0°F or 110°F outside?
  - cheschire 2y ago
    0f isn’t that hard in a house. Doors compartmentalize the place pretty good. Safety is a valid concern, but one that can be mitigated in straightforward ways with just mild discipline. 110f is something I would just drive away from. So the same question in return, why would you want to do that?
    - 2y ago
bdcravens 2y ago
I've only used V2L on my EV6 a few times, but the most ironic moment was when I turned off the power to my house so I could install the charger plug in the garage. It was hot, so I used my car to power a fan to keep me cool :-)

58 points by teleforce 2y ago

kkfx 2y ago

The ABSURD thing is that while we have a bi-directional CCS (DC current) standard no one produce photovoltaic hybrid systems able to direct connect to a parked car. Hybrid p.v. use since some years 400V LFP batteries, the same 400V nearly all BEV use. A direct connection means that the V2H part is already "isolating" a protected home electrical "grid" from the grid home/p.v. side, so there is nothing special to do but plug the car. Following p.v. availability the car can chard without DC-AC-DC lossy double conversion process, with much less costly stuff in between like domestic storage, similarly can discharge to the home as needed. A simple extension to the home electricity storage piloted by the p.v. inverter/a home server. It's essentially already there p.v. inverter side since hybrid 400V p.v. systems are fairly common and it's similarly already there since most cars support DC-charging piloted by the charger connected to the car BMS.

Weryj 2y ago

Selfless promotion, since it's on topic. We're working to get V2G in the hands of everyone: https://www.jedlix.com/ https://www.jedlix.com/

twarge 2y ago
It may be on topic, but I'm not sure how you get to selfless if you're promoting your venture.
- Spare_account 2y ago
  They probably meant to write 'shameless self-promotion'
  - Weryj 2y ago
    I absolutely did
mdaniel 2y ago
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jedlix.ichargesmart&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jedlix.ich... says "This item isn't available in your country (USA)" so I hope there are enough folks in whatever country you're targeting to make your shameless self-promotion work out for you
- Weryj 2y ago
  Yeah, it’s targeting Europe.

user_7832 2y ago

Interesting seeing V2X on HN, given that I'm currently researching V2G academically. One thing I've found in my studies is that services like frequency regulation are often described as very helpful or apt for EVs, but online discussion doesn't seem to talk much about the different electricity markets or services. I wonder if anyone here with experience either from an automotive or from an energy side as any views or opinions they'd like to share? (If anyone wants to ask anything about V2G feel free to ask, though I am not an expert I'll try my best.)

schiffern 2y ago

I wish we had more V1G, aka grid-interactive charging. It's extremely unsexy, but upon further inspection it's surprisingly great. It doesn't add costly cycles to the onboard traction battery, but it still can provide similar grid services (virtual spinning inertia, demand response, distribution network balancing, etc). Better yet it should be a software update for every existing electric car, even those without bidirectional hardware. Ideally I could tell my car, "always charge to [40]% immediately, then charge to [80]% by [8 AM] [Weekdays]." Then the car automatically participates in a fleet battery scheme, earning me money overnight by providing grid services. Bonus points if it also knows that I have TOU metering, and automatically optimizes for minimum cost.

labcomputer 2y ago
> Better yet it should be a software update for every existing electric car, even those without bidirectional hardware. Completely agree with everything you wrote, but also: It doesn't even require participation of the car! Plain old J1772 already provides the EVSE real-time-ish control over the charge rate. Some charging stations already exploit this to split power between two ports. When one car is plugged in it gets full current. Upon detecting a second vehicle, the EVSE signals the first to reduce current draw (and it must comply). In other words, every EV can be grid-interactive with just a software upgrade to the EVSE, or, failing that, replacement of the (much cheaper) EVSE.
mavhc 2y ago
https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-go/ https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-go/ UK power company offering that, if you have a compatible car/charger they can control for you
audunw 2y ago
Our power company ("Tibber") provides this as a service in their app for a bunch of different car models. Until recently this just let you avoid hours with more expensive electricity. But now you get an extra bonus on top of that since it lets the power company provide valuable grid balancing services. It's not sexy, but it's also not that hard to implement so I suspect this will become commonplace surprisingly quickly. > It doesn't add costly cycles to the onboard traction battery I guess for many people, NOT using V2G will be a net economic loss. For a big battery, and with 20%-80% limits, we are talking about extremely gentle cycles. The degradation is likely a drop in the bucket. Battery degrades with age as well as cycles. So after 20-30 years if you haven't used V2G you risk having an age-degraded battery that didn't deliver its full capability in terms of cycle life. Or the rest of your car has degraded before your battery did. For LFP it's even more likely that V2G will get you the most value out of the battery. If you go through a charge cycle every day or two on a Li-ion, I suspect V2G won't make sense since you're stressing the cycle life of your battery. The problem is we don't really know how long modern EV batteries will last, so it's impossible to know what the most rational choice is. We also don't know what the value of a degraded battery is in 15 years, and what the cost of a new one is. Since the economies of scale around battery recycling will be so massive in 15 years, it's possible that you get paid a fair sum for an old battery, and that getting a new battery will be fairly cheap. Or maybe not.

RatchetWerks 2y ago

I feel that bidirectional charging is the EV feature that most consumers don't know that they want. My current vehicle is fine, but when I'm in the market. I want an EV/PHEV vehicle that has enough power output to entirely power up my home, and serve as energy storage for solar. It avoids the need for a IC generator, and a power wall. They are a powerwall on wheels. When then battery age out in 10 years, you swap the vehicle. Gensets and in-home battery storage seem very redundant, when a bidirectional charging PHEV can do both. I've entertained the idea of picking up a Prius and hacking the electronics to act on this.

czechdeveloper 2y ago
Vehicle by definition can't be connected to the house constantly. I can imagine this lowers need for house battery size, but not need for it's existence. House power consumption is very random.
- adrianN 2y ago
  For many people, home power use its highest when they and their vehicle are at home.
- KeplerBoy 2y ago
  Doesn't matter. Homes tend to need power when people are at home. The car is - by definition - at home when its driver is at home.
  - two_handfuls 2y ago
    The point is, during the day while you’re at work your solar panels have nowhere to send their electricity.
- unglaublich 2y ago
  But when the vehicle is connected, the user is typically at home. So there's a convenient relation there. House power consumption is random because it's not designed to be predictable. It's trivial to have a washing machine and heating that prioritize energy consumption whenever the EV is connected, or grid energy is affordable.

iSnow 2y ago

Pretty sure this list is missing brands like VW who make cars that have V2H. I believe Polestar as well.

jbellis 2y ago
Also missing Ford Lightning. Weird list.
gruturo 2y ago
Especially as the Cupra Born (listed) is based on the same platform as ID.3 and ID.4 - maybe VW deliberately disabled this feature? Or is it just an omission?
- iSnow 2y ago
  I think the list is badly curated, as there's also the Skoda Eniaq missing, which is also VW, just like the listed Cupra.
emmanuel_1234 2y ago
edit: none of this seem to be true, big-ass pickup trucks are just not popular in Europe. Isn't it for Australia only? Are those models even sold there? I know F150 are not sold in Europe because (I think) they're not road legal, because they're monstrous killing machine.

BurnGpuBurn 2y ago

Off topic, those prices omg, how the hell are we going to get to zero without 95% of the population just being too poor to own a car? No matter how great the tech is, this is one of those rare occasions where the price of advanced new tech goes up with time. I've been able to buy a new 150 euro laptop for decades now at about 10% the price of a decent one. Why isn't this happening with electric vehicles?

lynx23 2y ago
If I had to guess... Because EVs are still a luxury item. All the green-deal-EVs-are-the-future talk is basically hot air. At least in my circles, all the EV owners have medium-to-high income. Its a luxury. And therefore, prices are high, because, you know, customers can and should be squeezed to the max.
- user_7832 2y ago
  The annoying thing is that there's nothing inherent about EVs that make them expensive/luxury. A budget EV is just as possible as a budget car, sure, the range may suffer (unless it's a hybrid) but it's technically possible. It's companies and maybe consumer preferences driving this. I'd guess luxury EVs just have a fatter margin.
  - infecto 2y ago
    It is a mixture that plays off each other. Consumers don't want small cars in the US and mid-size cars provide far better margin.
throw383y8 2y ago
You can buy EV for a few hundreds dollars (bike), cheapest Chinese cars are around $2k, European minis start at 10k EUR. EVs are actually very cheap as basic city car, but you have to leave out extra features like long range, bidicharging, heating... Zero emissions means much smaller car, not some monstrosity like 3 tons SUV ls for personal transport.

cheschire 2y ago

I feel like I must be missing some obvious thing because I simply don’t feel the need for a generator. Otherwise, why are whole-home generators so wildly popular, including so-called “solar generators” that are just batteries with crazy expensive solar panels and a convenient plug. And now this EV whole home generator concept taking off after the Ford F-150 Lightning made it well known. But I’ve survived multi-day power outages with nothing more than some flashlights, a camping stove and a camping heater. The cost of replacing my frozen foods is negligible compared to the cost of generators. What am I missing? Obviously some edge cases like CPAP, O2 concentrators, and other health things. But I have to imagine that is a small portion of the population compared to who’s buying these things.

mrkurt 2y ago
95 degrees, 100% humidity, and hurricane season.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  Also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_storm
thfuran 2y ago
>But I’ve survived multi-day power outages with nothing more than some flashlights, a camping stove and a camping heater But why would you want to do that? Would you still want to do it that way if it were 0°F or 110°F outside?
- cheschire 2y ago
  0f isn’t that hard in a house. Doors compartmentalize the place pretty good. Safety is a valid concern, but one that can be mitigated in straightforward ways with just mild discipline. 110f is something I would just drive away from. So the same question in return, why would you want to do that?
  - 2y ago

bdcravens 2y ago

I've only used V2L on my EV6 a few times, but the most ironic moment was when I turned off the power to my house so I could install the charger plug in the garage. It was hot, so I used my car to power a fan to keep me cool :-)