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Apple supplier Foxconn among firms asked to cut power use in Vietnam

40 points by mfiguiere 2y ago

rapsey 2y ago
That is quite a damper on their plans to become the next manufacturing hub. Cheap workforce is useless if you can't power the plants.
GaggiX 2y ago
It's time to install solar panels on the facility I guess.
- dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
  Wonder how the solar panel factories will get power. Wind turbines?
  - petesergeant 2y ago
    45% of power in northern Vietnam is hydro
    - dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
      I assume Vietnam has a nationally connected power grid. Nationally, it has a power mix of 25% hydro and 53% coal.
  - nicoburns 2y ago
    There's no reason you can't power solar panel factories with solar panels (once you've bootstrapped the process of course, but that applies to any power source).
    - dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
      You'd need a lot of land, and also need to put aside a proportion of your production (or profits) to cover those panels as they age.
      - nicoburns 2y ago
        A proportion of revenue will going on acquiring power regardless of the source.
      - 15155 2y ago
        When Europeans can buy 500W+ Trina panels for $150 shipped, something tells me this one-time investment isn't going to be too insurmountable.
        GaggiX 2y ago
        Or like 450W panel for 74€ shipped, for example: https://www.leroymerlin.es/productos/energias-renovables/energia-solar/paneles-solares-fotovoltaicos/panel-solar-risen-tipo-n-450-w-91264212.html https://www.leroymerlin.es/productos/energias-renovables/ene...
- noname120 2y ago
  Factories are immensely energy-intensive. I doubt it would significantly help/
  - lnsru 2y ago
    Factories have big flat roofs. That means low installation cost for solar panels. And these are nowadays pretty efficient. Not perfect angle or random shadow aren’t business or show stoppers now. Especially in a sunny country.
    - blackhawkC17 2y ago
      Even if you cover a factory's whole roof with solar panels, it can't generate enough electricity to run during working hours. Manufacturing takes ridiculous amounts of energy.
      - lnsru 2y ago
        Depends on what are you manufacturing. 200 watts from square meter roof is doable. 3x3 meter is about right space for a single machine with all the enclosures, tables, etc (in Europe). The average sized machines can be used with single phase allowing 3,6 kW power consumption. Half of it comes from solar panels. Halving power consumption is good imho. This math does not work for steel factory. The math is much better for assembly line type plant where only power tools <1 kW are used.
seper8 2y ago
Like a snake eating its own tail, here in the Netherlands we also have areas where companies are asked to reduce energy usage. There's even cases of companies or entire new neighbourhoods not being able to be attached to the grid. Thats one way to achieve "net zero"...
- jonkoops 2y ago
  Yeah, that is what chronic under-investment of the grid combined with a labor shortage will get you. I sincerely hope our government will be able to resolve these matters.
- piva00 2y ago
  > Despite the historic usage of wind power to drain water and grind grain, the Netherlands today lags 21 of the 26 other member states of the European Union in the consumption of energy from renewable sources. With how windy the whole Netherlands is I'd have expected it to be doing much better in wind power generation, seems like the oil lobby from Shell is eating the whole country's energy future... Edit: quite unexpected to get downvotes, is it the mention of Shell causing some issue? Because I believe it's a big reason for a massive off-shore wind potential to go untapped until around 2020.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    I suspect it's a land usage problem as well. But they've not kept up with Denmark in offshore wind, and I'm sure they could do more with rooftop solar (like most places). Being an entirely flat country is very bad for hydropower.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      Rooftop solar is huge in Holland because they still allow the users to detract their delivered kWhs from their bill. Regardless of the price at that time. It's called "salderen". This makes deploying solar panels highly cost effective but it basically makes daytime summer power so ubiquitous that they're having a hard time using it up. And on a global scale it's a waste of resources because Holland doesn't get an awful lot of sun. Meanwhile in Spain almost nobody has panels because they only get the momentary value which is not worth it during sunny tints unless you use it to run your own AC.
pjc50 2y ago
While I'm not a full market evangelist, I do wonder why there isn't an escalating cost curve put in place for situations like this. Surely they'd be much happier paying slightly more for reliable electricity?
- refurb 2y ago
  There just isn’t the electrical capacity plus it’s a communist country so while private businesses can exist, the government isn’t exactly know for its dynamic approach in using market forces for resource allocation so a buyer can pay more to secure power instead of another customer.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > plus it’s a communist country VN is "Communist" the same way the DPRK is "Democratic". In action it's a Wild West capitalist authoritarian state. They've been a market economy since 1986. > the government isn’t exactly know for its dynamic approach in using market forces for resource allocation so a buyer can pay more to secure power instead of another customer This isn't it. The issue is the capacity doesn't exist. Vietnam was in a state of war from 1939-1990, and infrastructure is creaky. Most of the infra that exists now was built in the last 15 years by private players, and private players are hesitant to put money in right now due to the game of thrones and VN's China influenced Zero-Covid policy a couple years ago.
    - refurb 2y ago
      > VN is "Communist" the same way the DPRK is "Democratic". No, it's different. Vietnam is still a one party communist country and the utilities are publicly run - with all the bureaucracy and incompetence that goes along with it. The state owned enterprises haven't changed that much since Doi Moi. > This isn't it. The issue is the capacity doesn't exist. There is clearly capacity for one company to lower demand by more and "sell" it to another which is what the message I replied to was alluding to. My comment was that while possible, the public utility likely had a blank stare on their face when asked about it.
dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
How does anyone justify buying energy-intensive smart toys (like phones), manufactured in places that burn huge amounts of coal to do so?
- trustno2 2y ago
  Phones are not really energy-intensive. They produce negligible amount of energy compared to house appliances. A fridge produces about 100 times more energy than a phone.
  - dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
    I should clarify - energy-intensive manufacture. Your claim is not supported by a large number of investigations, eg: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/17/links-17-aug-your-iphone-uses-more-energy-than-your-refrigerator/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/17/links-17...
- usrnm 2y ago
  People will justify anything if it's beneficial to them personally. Wait until you hear about slave labor
  - flanked-evergl 2y ago
    Given that there is no objective morality in the post-modern world, justice and just are entirely meaningless and arbitrary, and justifying an action is a merely rhetorical exercise.
- throw383y8 2y ago
  [flagged]
- nicoburns 2y ago
  Phones aren't really toys anymore. It's pretty hard to function in society without either a phone these days. For example, you may find yourself cut off from banking, government services, unable to order at restaurants, etc. There are usually work arounds, but not always.
alephnerd 2y ago
The power situation in the North is a significant issue, but fixable with the right roadmap for capacity planning. The way bigger issue now is the fact that To Lam is now president (#2 in Vietnam) and being positioned for the top seat in 2026. Oh and he'll continue to be Minister of Public Security as well. It's the equivalent of making the Head of the KGB the next head of the USSR. To Lam and the faction that backed him are much more ambivalent of market economics than the faction that lost the game of thrones going on the past few years, and he is EXTREMELY authoritarian in how he handles governance (he was the butcher of Gia Lai). This is basically the same game of thrones we saw in China in 2011-14 happening in VN. Already my SO's friends who run medical practices and clinics in Saigon are getting hit this past month by "anti-corruption" investigations that are basically a blatant attempt at extracting bribes - which was always an issue but never as blatant as the last few weeks. Lots of medical groups do bad stuff in VN, but the laws were also made to maximize bribe taking on the regulators end - for example, Nitrous Oxide is an illegal anesthesia, despite being openly available and abused in the party scene in VN, along with the fact that regulations around clinic sizes were purposely made so it's essentially impossible for any clinic to be following building code, and lots of doctors have been laid off the last few weeks because government docs get paid horribly ($200-300/mo) so everyone moonlights. And now most clinics are cutting staff or shutting down. Oh and Medical Education is no longer free - they're now charging $6k/yr for medical education in a country where your average household income might be half that and unlike the PH or Indonesia (countries with a similar GDP per Capita and HDI) there isn't a strong professionalized local lending and mortgage scene.
- cced 2y ago
  Not that I don’t believe you but can you post some sources for all of this? Lots to unpack here..
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > Not that I don’t believe you No worries! That's a good way to operate on the internet! Best to default assume it's all BS. And in all honesty, I have gotten lazy with citations recently. ------- For the medical anti-corruption crackdown, I don't have a source I can share other than hectic Zalo group chats of our friends asking us for last minute cash infusions as well as my SO's network back in VN, as well as her cousin's tuition hike at UMP after they changed the entire curriculum in the last 2 years (Edit: was lazy, I found it. 2024 [https://tuoitre.vn/truong-dai-hoc-y-duoc-tp-hcm-tang-hoc-phi-cao-nhat-84-7-trieu-20240414185933487.htm https://tuoitre.vn/truong-dai-hoc-y-duoc-tp-hcm-tang-hoc-phi...] versus 2022 [https://amp.laodong.vn/tuyen-sinh/hoc-phi-cac-truong-y-duoc-nam-2023-tang-manh-1220031.ldo https://amp.laodong.vn/tuyen-sinh/hoc-phi-cac-truong-y-duoc-...] - they 6Xed tuition in just 2 years from $500/sem to $3k/sem) For the To Lam and larger "anti-corruption" saga, it's been a rolling saga since the Viet A scandal. I'd use these though: [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-lawmakers-vote-dismiss-police-minister-clearing-way-his-presidency-2024-05-21/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-lawmakers... [1] - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-parliament-elects-new-speaker-amid-leadership-reshuffle-2024-05-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-parliamen... [2] - https://thediplomat.com/2024/05/with-latest-resignations-vietnams-game-of-thrones-intensifies/ https://thediplomat.com/2024/05/with-latest-resignations-vie... [3] - https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/vietnams-political-shake-up/ https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/vietnams-political-shake-up/ [4] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Vietnam-is-losing-appeal-as-a-land-of-stable-competent-leadership https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Vietnam-is-losing-appeal-as-... [5] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Vietnam-s-GDP-growth-slowed-to-5.66-in-Q1-on-weak-phone-car-output https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Vietnam-s-GDP-growth-slowed-... [6] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-22/-do-nothing-bureaucrats-are-imperiling-vietnam-s-economic-boom?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-22/-do-nothi... [7] - https://thediplomat.com/2022/06/vietnams-communist-party-dumps-officials-over-covid-19-test-kit-scam/ https://thediplomat.com/2022/06/vietnams-communist-party-dum...
trustno2 2y ago
Two random thoughts from visiting vietnam and talking with people * in large parts of the country, there is just sun at least half of the year, yet solar power is basically non-existent, basically all (edit: not all, but most) is coal. if renewables are so great, why are there no solar panels anywhere, in a country that is all sun? I saw some wind turbines in the central mountains at least * a lot of electricity is used on ACs, every house has at least one AC - how did people live before ACs were invented? can't imagine
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > why are there no solar panels anywhere Land procurement is annoying in VN, and most of the large scale infra is basically built by private players because local government is not the most capable. Also, it is mostly mountainous > how did people live before ACs were invented Start the day very early, take a siesta, and living in traditional houses to minimize the sun while also getting plenty of airflow. Edit: Listen to leduyquang753. His answer is much deeper and accurate than my broad strokes one.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  > how did people live before ACs were invented? can't imagine There's the part where people were more resistant to heat one way or another (either they were more used to it, or they made adjustments and had better coping mechanisms, or both). The other part is the gradual change in climate and environement where it might have gotten way worse than before. For instance having houses with bigger windows/worse insulation, more pollution pushing people to close their windows, more asphalt/less heat dissipation, more humidity and sheer temperatures raising.
  - planede 2y ago
    I speculate, but there might also be a part where simply more people suffered from heat strokes in the past when extreme temperatures occurred. So part of the answer of "how did people live before ACs were invented?" is that some didn't.
    - 2y ago
BillFranklin 2y ago
Generally I view things like this as under-investment in energy provision, rather than 'overusage' by businesses. There was story last year in the UK, where the power usage of data centres in west London were blamed for a lack of housing development. This turned out not to be true and an exercise in blame-shifting [1] [1] https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252523510/Datacentre-sector-hits-back-at-claims-that-West-London-electricty-grid-capacity-crunch-is-its-fault https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252523510/Datacentre-sec...

40 points by mfiguiere 2y ago

That is quite a damper on their plans to become the next manufacturing hub. Cheap workforce is useless if you can't power the plants.

GaggiX 2y ago

It's time to install solar panels on the facility I guess.

dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
Wonder how the solar panel factories will get power. Wind turbines?
- petesergeant 2y ago
  45% of power in northern Vietnam is hydro
  - dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
    I assume Vietnam has a nationally connected power grid. Nationally, it has a power mix of 25% hydro and 53% coal.
- nicoburns 2y ago
  There's no reason you can't power solar panel factories with solar panels (once you've bootstrapped the process of course, but that applies to any power source).
  - dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
    You'd need a lot of land, and also need to put aside a proportion of your production (or profits) to cover those panels as they age.
    - nicoburns 2y ago
      A proportion of revenue will going on acquiring power regardless of the source.
    - 15155 2y ago
      When Europeans can buy 500W+ Trina panels for $150 shipped, something tells me this one-time investment isn't going to be too insurmountable.
      - GaggiX 2y ago
        Or like 450W panel for 74€ shipped, for example: https://www.leroymerlin.es/productos/energias-renovables/energia-solar/paneles-solares-fotovoltaicos/panel-solar-risen-tipo-n-450-w-91264212.html https://www.leroymerlin.es/productos/energias-renovables/ene...
noname120 2y ago
Factories are immensely energy-intensive. I doubt it would significantly help/
- lnsru 2y ago
  Factories have big flat roofs. That means low installation cost for solar panels. And these are nowadays pretty efficient. Not perfect angle or random shadow aren’t business or show stoppers now. Especially in a sunny country.
  - blackhawkC17 2y ago
    Even if you cover a factory's whole roof with solar panels, it can't generate enough electricity to run during working hours. Manufacturing takes ridiculous amounts of energy.
    - lnsru 2y ago
      Depends on what are you manufacturing. 200 watts from square meter roof is doable. 3x3 meter is about right space for a single machine with all the enclosures, tables, etc (in Europe). The average sized machines can be used with single phase allowing 3,6 kW power consumption. Half of it comes from solar panels. Halving power consumption is good imho. This math does not work for steel factory. The math is much better for assembly line type plant where only power tools <1 kW are used.

seper8 2y ago

Like a snake eating its own tail, here in the Netherlands we also have areas where companies are asked to reduce energy usage. There's even cases of companies or entire new neighbourhoods not being able to be attached to the grid. Thats one way to achieve "net zero"...

jonkoops 2y ago
Yeah, that is what chronic under-investment of the grid combined with a labor shortage will get you. I sincerely hope our government will be able to resolve these matters.
piva00 2y ago
> Despite the historic usage of wind power to drain water and grind grain, the Netherlands today lags 21 of the 26 other member states of the European Union in the consumption of energy from renewable sources. With how windy the whole Netherlands is I'd have expected it to be doing much better in wind power generation, seems like the oil lobby from Shell is eating the whole country's energy future... Edit: quite unexpected to get downvotes, is it the mention of Shell causing some issue? Because I believe it's a big reason for a massive off-shore wind potential to go untapped until around 2020.
- pjc50 2y ago
  I suspect it's a land usage problem as well. But they've not kept up with Denmark in offshore wind, and I'm sure they could do more with rooftop solar (like most places). Being an entirely flat country is very bad for hydropower.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Rooftop solar is huge in Holland because they still allow the users to detract their delivered kWhs from their bill. Regardless of the price at that time. It's called "salderen". This makes deploying solar panels highly cost effective but it basically makes daytime summer power so ubiquitous that they're having a hard time using it up. And on a global scale it's a waste of resources because Holland doesn't get an awful lot of sun. Meanwhile in Spain almost nobody has panels because they only get the momentary value which is not worth it during sunny tints unless you use it to run your own AC.

pjc50 2y ago

While I'm not a full market evangelist, I do wonder why there isn't an escalating cost curve put in place for situations like this. Surely they'd be much happier paying slightly more for reliable electricity?

refurb 2y ago
There just isn’t the electrical capacity plus it’s a communist country so while private businesses can exist, the government isn’t exactly know for its dynamic approach in using market forces for resource allocation so a buyer can pay more to secure power instead of another customer.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > plus it’s a communist country VN is "Communist" the same way the DPRK is "Democratic". In action it's a Wild West capitalist authoritarian state. They've been a market economy since 1986. > the government isn’t exactly know for its dynamic approach in using market forces for resource allocation so a buyer can pay more to secure power instead of another customer This isn't it. The issue is the capacity doesn't exist. Vietnam was in a state of war from 1939-1990, and infrastructure is creaky. Most of the infra that exists now was built in the last 15 years by private players, and private players are hesitant to put money in right now due to the game of thrones and VN's China influenced Zero-Covid policy a couple years ago.
  - refurb 2y ago
    > VN is "Communist" the same way the DPRK is "Democratic". No, it's different. Vietnam is still a one party communist country and the utilities are publicly run - with all the bureaucracy and incompetence that goes along with it. The state owned enterprises haven't changed that much since Doi Moi. > This isn't it. The issue is the capacity doesn't exist. There is clearly capacity for one company to lower demand by more and "sell" it to another which is what the message I replied to was alluding to. My comment was that while possible, the public utility likely had a blank stare on their face when asked about it.

dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago

How does anyone justify buying energy-intensive smart toys (like phones), manufactured in places that burn huge amounts of coal to do so?

trustno2 2y ago
Phones are not really energy-intensive. They produce negligible amount of energy compared to house appliances. A fridge produces about 100 times more energy than a phone.
- dsalfdslfdsa 2y ago
  I should clarify - energy-intensive manufacture. Your claim is not supported by a large number of investigations, eg: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/17/links-17-aug-your-iphone-uses-more-energy-than-your-refrigerator/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/17/links-17...
usrnm 2y ago
People will justify anything if it's beneficial to them personally. Wait until you hear about slave labor
- flanked-evergl 2y ago
  Given that there is no objective morality in the post-modern world, justice and just are entirely meaningless and arbitrary, and justifying an action is a merely rhetorical exercise.
throw383y8 2y ago
[flagged]
nicoburns 2y ago
Phones aren't really toys anymore. It's pretty hard to function in society without either a phone these days. For example, you may find yourself cut off from banking, government services, unable to order at restaurants, etc. There are usually work arounds, but not always.

alephnerd 2y ago

The power situation in the North is a significant issue, but fixable with the right roadmap for capacity planning. The way bigger issue now is the fact that To Lam is now president (#2 in Vietnam) and being positioned for the top seat in 2026. Oh and he'll continue to be Minister of Public Security as well. It's the equivalent of making the Head of the KGB the next head of the USSR. To Lam and the faction that backed him are much more ambivalent of market economics than the faction that lost the game of thrones going on the past few years, and he is EXTREMELY authoritarian in how he handles governance (he was the butcher of Gia Lai). This is basically the same game of thrones we saw in China in 2011-14 happening in VN. Already my SO's friends who run medical practices and clinics in Saigon are getting hit this past month by "anti-corruption" investigations that are basically a blatant attempt at extracting bribes - which was always an issue but never as blatant as the last few weeks. Lots of medical groups do bad stuff in VN, but the laws were also made to maximize bribe taking on the regulators end - for example, Nitrous Oxide is an illegal anesthesia, despite being openly available and abused in the party scene in VN, along with the fact that regulations around clinic sizes were purposely made so it's essentially impossible for any clinic to be following building code, and lots of doctors have been laid off the last few weeks because government docs get paid horribly ($200-300/mo) so everyone moonlights. And now most clinics are cutting staff or shutting down. Oh and Medical Education is no longer free - they're now charging $6k/yr for medical education in a country where your average household income might be half that and unlike the PH or Indonesia (countries with a similar GDP per Capita and HDI) there isn't a strong professionalized local lending and mortgage scene.

cced 2y ago
Not that I don’t believe you but can you post some sources for all of this? Lots to unpack here..
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > Not that I don’t believe you No worries! That's a good way to operate on the internet! Best to default assume it's all BS. And in all honesty, I have gotten lazy with citations recently. ------- For the medical anti-corruption crackdown, I don't have a source I can share other than hectic Zalo group chats of our friends asking us for last minute cash infusions as well as my SO's network back in VN, as well as her cousin's tuition hike at UMP after they changed the entire curriculum in the last 2 years (Edit: was lazy, I found it. 2024 [https://tuoitre.vn/truong-dai-hoc-y-duoc-tp-hcm-tang-hoc-phi-cao-nhat-84-7-trieu-20240414185933487.htm https://tuoitre.vn/truong-dai-hoc-y-duoc-tp-hcm-tang-hoc-phi...] versus 2022 [https://amp.laodong.vn/tuyen-sinh/hoc-phi-cac-truong-y-duoc-nam-2023-tang-manh-1220031.ldo https://amp.laodong.vn/tuyen-sinh/hoc-phi-cac-truong-y-duoc-...] - they 6Xed tuition in just 2 years from $500/sem to $3k/sem) For the To Lam and larger "anti-corruption" saga, it's been a rolling saga since the Viet A scandal. I'd use these though: [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-lawmakers-vote-dismiss-police-minister-clearing-way-his-presidency-2024-05-21/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-lawmakers... [1] - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-parliament-elects-new-speaker-amid-leadership-reshuffle-2024-05-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnam-parliamen... [2] - https://thediplomat.com/2024/05/with-latest-resignations-vietnams-game-of-thrones-intensifies/ https://thediplomat.com/2024/05/with-latest-resignations-vie... [3] - https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/vietnams-political-shake-up/ https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/vietnams-political-shake-up/ [4] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Vietnam-is-losing-appeal-as-a-land-of-stable-competent-leadership https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Vietnam-is-losing-appeal-as-... [5] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Vietnam-s-GDP-growth-slowed-to-5.66-in-Q1-on-weak-phone-car-output https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Vietnam-s-GDP-growth-slowed-... [6] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-22/-do-nothing-bureaucrats-are-imperiling-vietnam-s-economic-boom?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-22/-do-nothi... [7] - https://thediplomat.com/2022/06/vietnams-communist-party-dumps-officials-over-covid-19-test-kit-scam/ https://thediplomat.com/2022/06/vietnams-communist-party-dum...

trustno2 2y ago

Two random thoughts from visiting vietnam and talking with people * in large parts of the country, there is just sun at least half of the year, yet solar power is basically non-existent, basically all (edit: not all, but most) is coal. if renewables are so great, why are there no solar panels anywhere, in a country that is all sun? I saw some wind turbines in the central mountains at least * a lot of electricity is used on ACs, every house has at least one AC - how did people live before ACs were invented? can't imagine

alephnerd 2y ago
> why are there no solar panels anywhere Land procurement is annoying in VN, and most of the large scale infra is basically built by private players because local government is not the most capable. Also, it is mostly mountainous > how did people live before ACs were invented Start the day very early, take a siesta, and living in traditional houses to minimize the sun while also getting plenty of airflow. Edit: Listen to leduyquang753. His answer is much deeper and accurate than my broad strokes one.
makeitdouble 2y ago
> how did people live before ACs were invented? can't imagine There's the part where people were more resistant to heat one way or another (either they were more used to it, or they made adjustments and had better coping mechanisms, or both). The other part is the gradual change in climate and environement where it might have gotten way worse than before. For instance having houses with bigger windows/worse insulation, more pollution pushing people to close their windows, more asphalt/less heat dissipation, more humidity and sheer temperatures raising.
- planede 2y ago
  I speculate, but there might also be a part where simply more people suffered from heat strokes in the past when extreme temperatures occurred. So part of the answer of "how did people live before ACs were invented?" is that some didn't.
  - 2y ago

BillFranklin 2y ago

Generally I view things like this as under-investment in energy provision, rather than 'overusage' by businesses. There was story last year in the UK, where the power usage of data centres in west London were blamed for a lack of housing development. This turned out not to be true and an exercise in blame-shifting [1] [1] https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252523510/Datacentre-sector-hits-back-at-claims-that-West-London-electricty-grid-capacity-crunch-is-its-fault https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252523510/Datacentre-sec...