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If you have looked then you can't have tried very hard: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territo

by 8372049 2y ago

If you have looked then you can't have tried very hard: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 49, last paragraph. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-49 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/art... https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule130 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule130

dotancohen 2y ago
I addressed that. The Israeli government did not and does not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. The citizens move there of their own accord, which is permissible. In fact, in this specific case, there exists a pre-occupation law that specifically allows for it.
- 8372049 2y ago
  > The Israeli government did not and does not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. The citizens move there of their own accord That is the same as a transfer under IHL.
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    If you have something official that I could read, I would appreciate it. I have been researching this for quite some time. But a blog post, but official declaration or regulation. Thank you.
    - defrost 2y ago
      There's the most recent Report of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israeli-settlements-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-including-east-jerusalem-and-in-the-occupied-syrian-golan/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israeli-settlements-in-t... Legal Framework, 11: According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, construction began for approximately 1,280 housing units in the first half of 2023 in Area C. All of these Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, because they amount to the transfer by Israel of its population into an occupied territory. They discuss settlers moving of their own accord and then the later "legalizing" of such moves by the State of Israel.
      - dotancohen 2y ago
        For one thing, that is only documentation of Israeli building, not a statement of what law is being broken. For another, that document specifically mentions that the new buildings are in Area C, which has been recinded by the PA (for purpose of discussion, the details are far more complicated than that).
        defrost 2y ago
        I'm not making any case here. You asked for "something official", "[not] a blog post", "an official declaration". I took up the challenge and found for you an official document of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights declaring " All of these Israeli settlements are illegal under international law". > not a statement of what law is being broken. From the linked document: International human rights law and international humanitarian law apply concurrently in the Occupied Palestinian Territory of Gaza, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the occupied Syrian Golan. This includes the obligations contained in the international human rights treaties to which Israel is a State party,[4] as well as the Regulations respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 1907 (Hague Regulations) and the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva Convention), which are binding upon Israel as the occupying Power under international humanitarian law as stated in an above comment by another party. I have no stance on the matter. You're welcome.
        dotancohen 2y ago
        You'll notice that those documents just repeat "Illegal under international law" and mention some laws that are to be applied in the area. There is no mention of any specific law being broken. That is the problem. What specific law is being broken?
        skyyler 2y ago
        >International human rights law and international humanitarian law apply concurrently in the Occupied Palestinian Territory of Gaza, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the occupied Syrian Golan. This includes the obligations contained in the international human rights treaties to which Israel is a State party,[4] as well as the Regulations respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 1907 (!_Hague Regulations_!) and the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (!_Fourth Geneva Convention_!), which are binding upon Israel as the occupying Power under international humanitarian law I added emphasis to the quote in the comment you're replying to since you missed it the first time.
  - boffinAudio 2y ago
    "Since 1967, government-funded settlement projects in the West Bank are implemented by the "Settlement Division" of the World Zionist Organization. Though formally a non-governmental organization, it is funded by the Israeli government and leases lands from the Civil Administration to settle in the West Bank."
- boffinAudio 2y ago
  > The Israeli government did not and does not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. This is false. West Bank settlement is funded by the Israeli government through the World Zionist Organization. EDIT: downvoters, please understand, the above statement is true. The government of Israel supports settlement via the WZO, which has a division (named "Settlement Division") with the specific purpose of making settlement possible through whatever loopholes can be exploited. The downvotes are an attempt to obfuscate this fact. "One of the mechanisms used by the government to favor the Jewish local authorities in the West Bank, in comparison with local authorities inside Israel, is to channel funding through the Settlement Division of the World Zionist Organization. Although the entire budget of the Settlement Division comes from state funds, as a non-governmental body it is not subject to the rules applying to government ministries in Israel." https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_g...
- racional 2y ago
  The citizens move there of their own accord, which is permissible In the sense of Article 49 -- "transfer" obviously means any form of actively supported migration (not the coerced transfer) of these peoples into the OT. In fact, in this specific case, there exists a pre-occupation law that specifically allows for it. Which "law"? Something from the time of the Mandate?
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    > In the sense of Article 49 -- "transfer" obviously means any form of actively supported migration (not the coerced transfer) of these peoples into the OT. No, it does not. Read the entire Article, I've read it. It protects civilians, it does not hinder their freedom to move. And it was specifically written in response to German transfer of civilians to Poland, while not interfering with German willful movement into occupied France. > Which "law"? Something from the time of the Mandate? No, the Brits did not touch the complicated Ottoman property laws. The Ottomans passed a law that anyone - Muslim, Jew, Arab, Druze, or other - could settle the land and they would then rightfully own it. This was to increase the tax yield of the very barren area, and it was wildly successful.
    - racional 2y ago
      [Article 49] protects civilians It protects civilians in occupied territories. Not the supposed "rights" of persons from an Occupying country to settle into these territories under the protection of the Occupier's armed forces and civil administration (as is the current situation in the West Bank). This is plainly obvious from the language of the GCIV; and it is the overwhelming consensus interpretation of legal scholars on in regard to this section.

dotancohen 2y ago

I addressed that. The Israeli government did not and does not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. The citizens move there of their own accord, which is permissible. In fact, in this specific case, there exists a pre-occupation law that specifically allows for it.

8372049 2y ago
> The Israeli government did not and does not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. The citizens move there of their own accord That is the same as a transfer under IHL.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  If you have something official that I could read, I would appreciate it. I have been researching this for quite some time. But a blog post, but official declaration or regulation. Thank you.
  - defrost 2y ago
    There's the most recent Report of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israeli-settlements-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-including-east-jerusalem-and-in-the-occupied-syrian-golan/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israeli-settlements-in-t... Legal Framework, 11: According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, construction began for approximately 1,280 housing units in the first half of 2023 in Area C. All of these Israeli settlements are illegal under international law, because they amount to the transfer by Israel of its population into an occupied territory. They discuss settlers moving of their own accord and then the later "legalizing" of such moves by the State of Israel.
    - dotancohen 2y ago
      For one thing, that is only documentation of Israeli building, not a statement of what law is being broken. For another, that document specifically mentions that the new buildings are in Area C, which has been recinded by the PA (for purpose of discussion, the details are far more complicated than that).
      - defrost 2y ago
        I'm not making any case here. You asked for "something official", "[not] a blog post", "an official declaration". I took up the challenge and found for you an official document of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights declaring " All of these Israeli settlements are illegal under international law". > not a statement of what law is being broken. From the linked document: International human rights law and international humanitarian law apply concurrently in the Occupied Palestinian Territory of Gaza, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the occupied Syrian Golan. This includes the obligations contained in the international human rights treaties to which Israel is a State party,[4] as well as the Regulations respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 1907 (Hague Regulations) and the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva Convention), which are binding upon Israel as the occupying Power under international humanitarian law as stated in an above comment by another party. I have no stance on the matter. You're welcome.
        dotancohen 2y ago
        You'll notice that those documents just repeat "Illegal under international law" and mention some laws that are to be applied in the area. There is no mention of any specific law being broken. That is the problem. What specific law is being broken?
        skyyler 2y ago
        >International human rights law and international humanitarian law apply concurrently in the Occupied Palestinian Territory of Gaza, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the occupied Syrian Golan. This includes the obligations contained in the international human rights treaties to which Israel is a State party,[4] as well as the Regulations respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 1907 (!_Hague Regulations_!) and the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (!_Fourth Geneva Convention_!), which are binding upon Israel as the occupying Power under international humanitarian law I added emphasis to the quote in the comment you're replying to since you missed it the first time.
- boffinAudio 2y ago
  "Since 1967, government-funded settlement projects in the West Bank are implemented by the "Settlement Division" of the World Zionist Organization. Though formally a non-governmental organization, it is funded by the Israeli government and leases lands from the Civil Administration to settle in the West Bank."
boffinAudio 2y ago
> The Israeli government did not and does not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. This is false. West Bank settlement is funded by the Israeli government through the World Zionist Organization. EDIT: downvoters, please understand, the above statement is true. The government of Israel supports settlement via the WZO, which has a division (named "Settlement Division") with the specific purpose of making settlement possible through whatever loopholes can be exploited. The downvotes are an attempt to obfuscate this fact. "One of the mechanisms used by the government to favor the Jewish local authorities in the West Bank, in comparison with local authorities inside Israel, is to channel funding through the Settlement Division of the World Zionist Organization. Although the entire budget of the Settlement Division comes from state funds, as a non-governmental body it is not subject to the rules applying to government ministries in Israel." https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_g...
racional 2y ago
The citizens move there of their own accord, which is permissible In the sense of Article 49 -- "transfer" obviously means any form of actively supported migration (not the coerced transfer) of these peoples into the OT. In fact, in this specific case, there exists a pre-occupation law that specifically allows for it. Which "law"? Something from the time of the Mandate?
- dotancohen 2y ago
  > In the sense of Article 49 -- "transfer" obviously means any form of actively supported migration (not the coerced transfer) of these peoples into the OT. No, it does not. Read the entire Article, I've read it. It protects civilians, it does not hinder their freedom to move. And it was specifically written in response to German transfer of civilians to Poland, while not interfering with German willful movement into occupied France. > Which "law"? Something from the time of the Mandate? No, the Brits did not touch the complicated Ottoman property laws. The Ottomans passed a law that anyone - Muslim, Jew, Arab, Druze, or other - could settle the land and they would then rightfully own it. This was to increase the tax yield of the very barren area, and it was wildly successful.
  - racional 2y ago
    [Article 49] protects civilians It protects civilians in occupied territories. Not the supposed "rights" of persons from an Occupying country to settle into these territories under the protection of the Occupier's armed forces and civil administration (as is the current situation in the West Bank). This is plainly obvious from the language of the GCIV; and it is the overwhelming consensus interpretation of legal scholars on in regard to this section.