5 ms·

Even though this is hardly HN material, there's some kind of hackerish mindset about reacting to accusations by doing an in-depth "pot, kettle, black" report ab

by swombat 14y ago

Even though this is hardly HN material, there's some kind of hackerish mindset about reacting to accusations by doing an in-depth "pot, kettle, black" report about the accuser, so I upvoted this. For those of us who keep track of US news, it's pretty obvious that the human rights situation there is "variable", to say the least. You rarely hear about people being wrongly killed by the police in Europe, whereas in the US it appears to be relatively frequent. As for freedom... let's not go there. The easily manipulated US government is probably the single most important political force for evil in the fight to protect our rights online. Anyway, so, totally off-topic, but a smart approach from China...

phreeza 14y ago
Thats why I posted it. I was a bit surprised seeing it made the front page, but I thought it was interesting to see this in basically the same language usually used to describe China.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- narag 14y ago
  Europe's population is double USA's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
- phreeza 14y ago
  Europe as a whole has a larger population than the US, but the US is more homogenous in its culture/language, so your point holds.
  - Morg 14y ago
    China is incredibly larger for same culture/language population numbers, yet it doesn't have half the issues. While this is all propaganda and the article clearly avoids some details, the truth is the situation is really bad and Chinese people have no reason to look up to the US, as much as US people have no reason to look down on China. Right now, as an European, I'd rather live in China than in the US.
    - adventureful 14y ago
      China doesn't have half the issues? That a lie, and then some. There's a very good reason Chen Guangcheng desperately wanted to escape China. China has every bit the racism and nationalism problems that America has. Ask China what they think of the Japanese some time. China is surely very willing to leave the peaceful, successful nation of Taiwan alone, right? It's not like they have any intention of brutally, viciously conquering the island when it's convenient, invading and murdering its people all in the name of reclaiming land that acted as a safe haven for Chinese fleeing from the genocide of Mao (Mao having killed tens of millions of his own people). China is massively belligerent and violent. Should we free Tibet? Oh right, Tibet doesn't really exist any more because they gradually cleansed the entire country of its people and culture. China has radically worse inequality, 3/4 of a billion people living on $1 to $2 dollars per day, half a billion people without proper access to sanitary drinking water or indoor plumbing. China still has half of the poorest 10% of people on the entire planet, meanwhile they're printing billionaires along the eastern coast. China has no systems comparable to medicare, medicaid, or social security. As faulty as they may be in the US, China doesn't even have a real social safety net at all. Chinese workers have absolutely zero rights, and there are no rights to unionize. China has almost zero property rights at all. There is no right to democratic representation in China. There is zero freedom of speech in China. China is even more violent, with mass executions in large stadiums just to clear out crime numbers, regardless of whether those executed are in fact the guilty. 5,000 people were slaughtered execution style in 2009 alone, roughly 50,000 people per decade are killed in execution fashion by the Chinese Government. Texas by comparison executes about 25 people per year, and that gets endless press. China routinely locks down entire villages. Over 200 riots were reported last year alone. They shut off all access to the external world, and proceed to haul off the trouble makers to gulag camps for political prisoners. The propaganda that China doesn't have half the problems of the US is complete bunk.
      - Morg 14y ago
        Taiwan and Hong Kong and Tibet have been claimed by China years ago, get over it. Not like Western countries didn't invade Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya to put governments that favor them instead. The japanese and the chinese is an entirely different story that would take books to cover, it isn't quite relevant as I don't remember the mexicans brutally invading the US of A. Furthermore medicare and that kind of crap is rapidly becoming better than what's available for free in the US, do remember China comes from much lower and will most likely improve a lot still, while the US is clearly in decline. So as much as you're correct in pointing out that China has its own issues, they're not the same issues, and some people will rightfully choose China over the USA. As a modestly rich European, I think my family would be much safer in China than in the US, and overall the Europe is still much better than both.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- archangel_one 14y ago
  That's not correct; some of us have noticed that by population Europe is in fact larger than the US. Wikipedia says 731 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_po...) although that draws the line further east than some might; the EU covers just over 500 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Un...). So you'd expect the occurrences per 1K pop to happen less frequently in the US.
- metatronscube 14y ago
  What do you mean? In terms of population? Europe is around 700 million and the US is what 400 million at the most and China is even larger. So given the population trails behind China and Europe, human rights in the US don't look that rosy (neither does the UK for that matter). I mean the US has for some time had the largest prison population on the planet. I'm just putting that out there as well, and try to understand what you are getting at?
jonnathanson 14y ago
With all due respect, this is a tall order of false equivalence. The US's track record on human rights, income inequality, etc., is far from spotless. It's borderline infuriating at times. But even to place it in the same ballpark as the PRC's is silly. Consider that, in the US, people were able to protest and stop SOPA and PIPA from coming to pass. In China, the government controls the entire internet. It's actually debatable that we could be having a similar conversation about the government, on a site like this one, were we in China right now. The U.S. detains certain people without warrant or trial in its misguided "war on terror." But the PRC can detain any of its citizens, at any time, for any reason, and often does. It's interesting to consider the hypocrisies and inconsistencies of our own government and society. I'm all for it. But we shouldn't lose sight of reality.
- Morg 14y ago
  With all due respect, you are blinded by the kool aid my dear. In the US the government controls the entire internet, as well as every information every company holds, including facebook, twitter, google and apple - as well as Intel and Microsoft. The PRC and the US both have "legitimate" ways to detain any citizen or non-citizen at any time, for any reason, and often do. I would like to insist that there is NO difference on that specific point since the patriot act. SOPA and PIPA aren't govt related, they're big content's attempt at having it's own control channel over the internet. By the way, you forget the positive aspects of China, like those emphasized in the article: In a communist country, there's real security. My grandparents were in USSR in the 70's, and many like them said they had absolutely NO FEAR AT ALL letting their kids play outside. That's right dream on. You'll never get that in the US, unless you have your own security.
  - adventureful 14y ago
    Really simple way to answer your false declarations: Then how come Hacker News exists and I can say what I want here? Try that in China some time =)
    - Morg 14y ago

by swombat 14y ago

phreeza 14y ago

Thats why I posted it. I was a bit surprised seeing it made the front page, but I thought it was interesting to see this in basically the same language usually used to describe China.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

narag 14y ago
Europe's population is double USA's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
phreeza 14y ago
Europe as a whole has a larger population than the US, but the US is more homogenous in its culture/language, so your point holds.
- Morg 14y ago
  China is incredibly larger for same culture/language population numbers, yet it doesn't have half the issues. While this is all propaganda and the article clearly avoids some details, the truth is the situation is really bad and Chinese people have no reason to look up to the US, as much as US people have no reason to look down on China. Right now, as an European, I'd rather live in China than in the US.
  - adventureful 14y ago
    China doesn't have half the issues? That a lie, and then some. There's a very good reason Chen Guangcheng desperately wanted to escape China. China has every bit the racism and nationalism problems that America has. Ask China what they think of the Japanese some time. China is surely very willing to leave the peaceful, successful nation of Taiwan alone, right? It's not like they have any intention of brutally, viciously conquering the island when it's convenient, invading and murdering its people all in the name of reclaiming land that acted as a safe haven for Chinese fleeing from the genocide of Mao (Mao having killed tens of millions of his own people). China is massively belligerent and violent. Should we free Tibet? Oh right, Tibet doesn't really exist any more because they gradually cleansed the entire country of its people and culture. China has radically worse inequality, 3/4 of a billion people living on $1 to $2 dollars per day, half a billion people without proper access to sanitary drinking water or indoor plumbing. China still has half of the poorest 10% of people on the entire planet, meanwhile they're printing billionaires along the eastern coast. China has no systems comparable to medicare, medicaid, or social security. As faulty as they may be in the US, China doesn't even have a real social safety net at all. Chinese workers have absolutely zero rights, and there are no rights to unionize. China has almost zero property rights at all. There is no right to democratic representation in China. There is zero freedom of speech in China. China is even more violent, with mass executions in large stadiums just to clear out crime numbers, regardless of whether those executed are in fact the guilty. 5,000 people were slaughtered execution style in 2009 alone, roughly 50,000 people per decade are killed in execution fashion by the Chinese Government. Texas by comparison executes about 25 people per year, and that gets endless press. China routinely locks down entire villages. Over 200 riots were reported last year alone. They shut off all access to the external world, and proceed to haul off the trouble makers to gulag camps for political prisoners. The propaganda that China doesn't have half the problems of the US is complete bunk.
    - Morg 14y ago
      Taiwan and Hong Kong and Tibet have been claimed by China years ago, get over it. Not like Western countries didn't invade Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya to put governments that favor them instead. The japanese and the chinese is an entirely different story that would take books to cover, it isn't quite relevant as I don't remember the mexicans brutally invading the US of A. Furthermore medicare and that kind of crap is rapidly becoming better than what's available for free in the US, do remember China comes from much lower and will most likely improve a lot still, while the US is clearly in decline. So as much as you're correct in pointing out that China has its own issues, they're not the same issues, and some people will rightfully choose China over the USA. As a modestly rich European, I think my family would be much safer in China than in the US, and overall the Europe is still much better than both.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
archangel_one 14y ago
That's not correct; some of us have noticed that by population Europe is in fact larger than the US. Wikipedia says 731 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_po...) although that draws the line further east than some might; the EU covers just over 500 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Un...). So you'd expect the occurrences per 1K pop to happen less frequently in the US.
metatronscube 14y ago
What do you mean? In terms of population? Europe is around 700 million and the US is what 400 million at the most and China is even larger. So given the population trails behind China and Europe, human rights in the US don't look that rosy (neither does the UK for that matter). I mean the US has for some time had the largest prison population on the planet. I'm just putting that out there as well, and try to understand what you are getting at?

jonnathanson 14y ago

With all due respect, this is a tall order of false equivalence. The US's track record on human rights, income inequality, etc., is far from spotless. It's borderline infuriating at times. But even to place it in the same ballpark as the PRC's is silly. Consider that, in the US, people were able to protest and stop SOPA and PIPA from coming to pass. In China, the government controls the entire internet. It's actually debatable that we could be having a similar conversation about the government, on a site like this one, were we in China right now. The U.S. detains certain people without warrant or trial in its misguided "war on terror." But the PRC can detain any of its citizens, at any time, for any reason, and often does. It's interesting to consider the hypocrisies and inconsistencies of our own government and society. I'm all for it. But we shouldn't lose sight of reality.

Morg 14y ago
With all due respect, you are blinded by the kool aid my dear. In the US the government controls the entire internet, as well as every information every company holds, including facebook, twitter, google and apple - as well as Intel and Microsoft. The PRC and the US both have "legitimate" ways to detain any citizen or non-citizen at any time, for any reason, and often do. I would like to insist that there is NO difference on that specific point since the patriot act. SOPA and PIPA aren't govt related, they're big content's attempt at having it's own control channel over the internet. By the way, you forget the positive aspects of China, like those emphasized in the article: In a communist country, there's real security. My grandparents were in USSR in the 70's, and many like them said they had absolutely NO FEAR AT ALL letting their kids play outside. That's right dream on. You'll never get that in the US, unless you have your own security.
- adventureful 14y ago
  Really simple way to answer your false declarations: Then how come Hacker News exists and I can say what I want here? Try that in China some time =)
  - Morg 14y ago