4 ms·

This is either not true or misleading. Palestinians can't move without Israeli consent. It doesn't matter that what the egyptians have chosen voluntarily (they

This is either not true or misleading. Palestinians can't move without Israeli consent. It doesn't matter that what the egyptians have chosen voluntarily (they haven't), when every other path in and out of Gaza is controlled by Israel and subject to force and threat of death. For any other territory or nation that would be considered a threat of war. >Under the Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing, part of the Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA) of 15 November 2005, EUBAM was responsible for monitoring the Border Crossing. The agreement ensured Israel authority to dispute entrance by any person.[14] This was in 2005, before Hamas. Now if you can't get to Gaza from the sea, because of Israel. Or from Egypt, because of Israel. Or from Israel itself... Again, any territory or nation would consider something like this as an act of war, or if we don't see them as nation then apartheid. But no, the Gaza strip was completely free otherwise I guess?

YZF 2y ago
Well, Hamas and Israel are at war, and have been at war since Hamas came to power, so not sure why "act of war" matters here. Firing rockets at Israel surely is an act of war. If Israel has such good control over the Egypt-Gaza border how do Hamas fighters get to train in Iran? https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fighters-trained-in-iran-before-oct-7-attacks-e2a8dbb9 https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fighters-trained... https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/09/iran-support-hamas-training-weapons-israel/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/09/... How did they get all the rocket manufacturing technology? Weapons? This: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing says: "It is located on the Egypt–Palestine border. Under a 2007 agreement between Egypt and Israel, Egypt controls the crossing but imports through the Rafah crossing require Israeli approval." There is no mention of controlling movement of people. Anyways, this is something Egypt agreed to and it's sovereign and free to agree to anything it wants to. What do you mean "Egypt has no chosen voluntarily"? Do you have a reference to your claim that Palestinians can't move without Israel consent? You're mentioning EUBAM but EUBAM hasn't been there since 2007: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Border_Assistance_Mission_to_Rafah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Border_Assistan...
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  This was before Hamas took power. That's why I said 2005. And yes, so between 2005 and 2007 Israel already had control over the border. That's before Hamas. Once Hamas got into power, Israel restricted the border policy even more, but Egypt just basically closed theirs. I mean I'm not sure what's the debate here. Even Israel is very clear that they issue visas for entry to Gaza. That sure sounds like administering a border to me. In the west bank, they completely control every border point. In Gaza, it's de facto the same thing as Egypt doesn't open theirs for most of the year as they consider Israel the administrative authority that deals with Gaza borders. Which is something Israel acknowledges. Does your country emit visas for territories it doesn't administer? https://www.gov.il/en/service/entry-to-gaza https://www.gov.il/en/service/entry-to-gaza https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-03-10/ty-article/.premium/gaza-residents-allowed-to-travel-as-long-as-they-stay-away/0000017f-e869-df5f-a17f-fbff36280000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-03-10/ty-article/.p... https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/20170515_thousands_of_palestinians_barred_from_traveling_abroad https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/20170515_thousan... Edit: as for Egyptian control of the border, here's a source that explains how it's in many ways nominal only, with a tacit agreement between Israel and Egypt about dual use materials. https://features.gisha.org/red-lines-gray-lists/ https://features.gisha.org/red-lines-gray-lists/ Which I guess can make sense considering Hamas. But then one has to remember that this has been the case before Hamas took power too. So that catch all excuse doesn't hold water.
  - jdietrich 2y ago
    Gaza was under Israeli control until 2005. The Agreement on Movement and Access was made between Israel and the Palestinian Authority as part of Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. That agreement collapsed in 2006 when Hamas took power. The PA had fled Gaza and were no longer able to uphold their side of the agreement; Hamas did not recognise the agreement and were unwilling to negotiate with the PA, Egypt or Israel on border security arrangements.
  - YZF 2y ago
    The debate is about the false claim that Israel has control over all of Gazas borders. Egypt has control over one border. That is a matter of fact. The Anti-Israeli crowd refuses to deal with facts. Israel administers it's border with Gaza. That's not the debate. Israel requires people to get a permit to enter Gaza from Israel. It does not control who goes into Gaza from Egypt. Your claim: "Does your country emit visas for territories it doesn't administer?" is nonsense and factually incorrect.

YZF 2y ago

Well, Hamas and Israel are at war, and have been at war since Hamas came to power, so not sure why "act of war" matters here. Firing rockets at Israel surely is an act of war. If Israel has such good control over the Egypt-Gaza border how do Hamas fighters get to train in Iran? https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fighters-trained-in-iran-before-oct-7-attacks-e2a8dbb9 https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fighters-trained... https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/09/iran-support-hamas-training-weapons-israel/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/09/... How did they get all the rocket manufacturing technology? Weapons? This: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing says: "It is located on the Egypt–Palestine border. Under a 2007 agreement between Egypt and Israel, Egypt controls the crossing but imports through the Rafah crossing require Israeli approval." There is no mention of controlling movement of people. Anyways, this is something Egypt agreed to and it's sovereign and free to agree to anything it wants to. What do you mean "Egypt has no chosen voluntarily"? Do you have a reference to your claim that Palestinians can't move without Israel consent? You're mentioning EUBAM but EUBAM hasn't been there since 2007: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Border_Assistance_Mission_to_Rafah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Border_Assistan...

mardifoufs 2y ago
This was before Hamas took power. That's why I said 2005. And yes, so between 2005 and 2007 Israel already had control over the border. That's before Hamas. Once Hamas got into power, Israel restricted the border policy even more, but Egypt just basically closed theirs. I mean I'm not sure what's the debate here. Even Israel is very clear that they issue visas for entry to Gaza. That sure sounds like administering a border to me. In the west bank, they completely control every border point. In Gaza, it's de facto the same thing as Egypt doesn't open theirs for most of the year as they consider Israel the administrative authority that deals with Gaza borders. Which is something Israel acknowledges. Does your country emit visas for territories it doesn't administer? https://www.gov.il/en/service/entry-to-gaza https://www.gov.il/en/service/entry-to-gaza https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-03-10/ty-article/.premium/gaza-residents-allowed-to-travel-as-long-as-they-stay-away/0000017f-e869-df5f-a17f-fbff36280000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-03-10/ty-article/.p... https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/20170515_thousands_of_palestinians_barred_from_traveling_abroad https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/20170515_thousan... Edit: as for Egyptian control of the border, here's a source that explains how it's in many ways nominal only, with a tacit agreement between Israel and Egypt about dual use materials. https://features.gisha.org/red-lines-gray-lists/ https://features.gisha.org/red-lines-gray-lists/ Which I guess can make sense considering Hamas. But then one has to remember that this has been the case before Hamas took power too. So that catch all excuse doesn't hold water.
- jdietrich 2y ago
  Gaza was under Israeli control until 2005. The Agreement on Movement and Access was made between Israel and the Palestinian Authority as part of Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. That agreement collapsed in 2006 when Hamas took power. The PA had fled Gaza and were no longer able to uphold their side of the agreement; Hamas did not recognise the agreement and were unwilling to negotiate with the PA, Egypt or Israel on border security arrangements.
- YZF 2y ago
  The debate is about the false claim that Israel has control over all of Gazas borders. Egypt has control over one border. That is a matter of fact. The Anti-Israeli crowd refuses to deal with facts. Israel administers it's border with Gaza. That's not the debate. Israel requires people to get a permit to enter Gaza from Israel. It does not control who goes into Gaza from Egypt. Your claim: "Does your country emit visas for territories it doesn't administer?" is nonsense and factually incorrect.