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As someone that has built and operated large multipractice and acute care facilities some of the most vicious fights I've had with medical entities and boards i

As someone that has built and operated large multipractice and acute care facilities some of the most vicious fights I've had with medical entities and boards is about changing hardware back to the older brass/copper which is inherently antibacterial and only needs cleaning with soap/water to self disinfect versus stainless steel which needs cleaning with bleach and can foster or even lead to the creation of resistant and other problematic bacteria. The objections were mostly about the visual appearance. I am not sure I see the advantage to this new material over the good old brass/copper. There is a perceived cost premium to it but it isn't meaningful in practice. This paper alleges this new process is cheaper but I would be incredibly dubious of that. At ClearHealth we were successful in substantially reducing hospital acquired infection (HAI) rates at managed facilities to industry best in part because of our "reversion" to copper/brass hardware. One of the most obvious signs you are in a well managed health system is seeing copper/brassy touch surfaces instead of stainless. https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/ba-news/2010/january/article3.html https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/ba-news/2010... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_co... https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/24/as-hospitals-look-to-prevent-infections-a-chorus-of-researchers-make-a-case-for-copper-surfaces/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/24/as-hospitals-look-to-pre...

koolba 2y ago
From the Wikipedia page: > The oligodynamic effect was discovered in 1893 as a toxic effect of metal ions on living cells, algae, molds, spores, fungi, viruses, prokaryotic, and eukaryotic microorganisms, even in relatively low concentrations.[7] This antimicrobial effect is shown by ions of copper as well as mercury, silver, iron, lead, zinc, bismuth, gold, and aluminium. So I can justify wearing a bunch of oversized gold chains as “for my health”?
- nelox 2y ago
  Go the whole-hog and dip yourself in mercury.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    Terracotta army style. I like it!
- khaki54 2y ago
  Yes, and that means you can buy the jewelry with FSA/HSA funds
westurner 2y ago
Do the useful properties of copper change with oxidation? Silver is also antimicrobial, and also expensive. FWIU nanospikes in silicon achieved virucidal outcomes in small trials as well. Is copper virucidal without nanospikes? (On this topic, Hemp textiles are antimicrobial / bactericidal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196781#39197019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196781#39197019 ) "Scientists create virucidal silicon surface without any chemicals" https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.3c07099 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.3c07099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196822 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196822
- duffpkg 2y ago
  Oxidation is a problem as is physical debris but touch surfaces are cleaned at least daily in a hospital setting anyway. Plain old Copper/brass that has been used since forever is virucidal without any special treatment.
  - westurner 2y ago
    Is the claim then that copper nanospikes on stainless steel are of no greater value than copper for healthcare applications? Is that claim supported by evidence?
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      The claim is that spikes kill faster, but probably not fast enough to matter since spikes are destroyed with shear cleaning.
- jahewson 2y ago
  A frequently touched surface isn’t going to have a problem with oxidation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_rubbing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_rubbing
  - aitchnyu 2y ago
    So the people rubbing breasts of statues to a shine were doing it for uh... serious reasons?
technofiend 2y ago
Nosocomial infections are terrifying because they're often things that have as you said survived in a very harsh environment. Thank you for doing your part to reduce them.
jahewson 2y ago
Set up a company selling remarkably over-priced “medical” door handles and healthcare providers will fall over themselves to buy them.
DannyBee 2y ago
Copper is of course, chemically incompatible with most disinfectants and cleaners and will corrode. Which is one reason it stopped being used when ammonia/etc became super common. They are less common now in straight form (even Windex is no longer mainly ammonia unless you use the original formula version) So solid copper/brass i can get behind because it probably doesn't affect lifetime meaningfully, but I am very curious how the coating in the article withstands splashes of ammonia or peroxides or other things used to clean the floors or windows.
- FieryTransition 2y ago
  I was wondering about this too, it's not viable to have a coating which necessitates changing equipment periodically. It will add logistical problems and waste. I think you are right in that using solid metals instead, makes more sense, given antibacterial properties have been known to exist for these for a while. The question is if all types of pathogens can be removed without damaging the equipment, or if material research could create an alloy which just like stainless steel, could make the metal form an oxidation layer which would protect it in case of contact with corrosive liquids.
garyclarke27 2y ago
Wood also has excellent antimicrobial properties e.g. makes a much safer cutting board than plastic
- Traubenfuchs 2y ago
  ...but you can easier wash plastic in the dishwasher, while wooden cutting boards get warped and destroyed.
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Wash wood or eat microplastics from the cutting board.
DanielHB 2y ago
Changing handles in busses/trains from metal to plastic probably killed more people than a lot of other common causes. Everyone is touching those things, they are dirtier than cash.

koolba 2y ago

From the Wikipedia page: > The oligodynamic effect was discovered in 1893 as a toxic effect of metal ions on living cells, algae, molds, spores, fungi, viruses, prokaryotic, and eukaryotic microorganisms, even in relatively low concentrations.[7] This antimicrobial effect is shown by ions of copper as well as mercury, silver, iron, lead, zinc, bismuth, gold, and aluminium. So I can justify wearing a bunch of oversized gold chains as “for my health”?

nelox 2y ago
Go the whole-hog and dip yourself in mercury.
- throwup238 2y ago
  Terracotta army style. I like it!
khaki54 2y ago
Yes, and that means you can buy the jewelry with FSA/HSA funds

westurner 2y ago

Do the useful properties of copper change with oxidation? Silver is also antimicrobial, and also expensive. FWIU nanospikes in silicon achieved virucidal outcomes in small trials as well. Is copper virucidal without nanospikes? (On this topic, Hemp textiles are antimicrobial / bactericidal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196781#39197019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196781#39197019 ) "Scientists create virucidal silicon surface without any chemicals" https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.3c07099 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.3c07099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196822 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39196822

duffpkg 2y ago
Oxidation is a problem as is physical debris but touch surfaces are cleaned at least daily in a hospital setting anyway. Plain old Copper/brass that has been used since forever is virucidal without any special treatment.
- westurner 2y ago
  Is the claim then that copper nanospikes on stainless steel are of no greater value than copper for healthcare applications? Is that claim supported by evidence?
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    The claim is that spikes kill faster, but probably not fast enough to matter since spikes are destroyed with shear cleaning.
jahewson 2y ago
A frequently touched surface isn’t going to have a problem with oxidation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_rubbing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_rubbing
- aitchnyu 2y ago
  So the people rubbing breasts of statues to a shine were doing it for uh... serious reasons?

technofiend 2y ago

Nosocomial infections are terrifying because they're often things that have as you said survived in a very harsh environment. Thank you for doing your part to reduce them.

jahewson 2y ago

Set up a company selling remarkably over-priced “medical” door handles and healthcare providers will fall over themselves to buy them.

DannyBee 2y ago

Copper is of course, chemically incompatible with most disinfectants and cleaners and will corrode. Which is one reason it stopped being used when ammonia/etc became super common. They are less common now in straight form (even Windex is no longer mainly ammonia unless you use the original formula version) So solid copper/brass i can get behind because it probably doesn't affect lifetime meaningfully, but I am very curious how the coating in the article withstands splashes of ammonia or peroxides or other things used to clean the floors or windows.

FieryTransition 2y ago
I was wondering about this too, it's not viable to have a coating which necessitates changing equipment periodically. It will add logistical problems and waste. I think you are right in that using solid metals instead, makes more sense, given antibacterial properties have been known to exist for these for a while. The question is if all types of pathogens can be removed without damaging the equipment, or if material research could create an alloy which just like stainless steel, could make the metal form an oxidation layer which would protect it in case of contact with corrosive liquids.

garyclarke27 2y ago

Wood also has excellent antimicrobial properties e.g. makes a much safer cutting board than plastic

Traubenfuchs 2y ago
...but you can easier wash plastic in the dishwasher, while wooden cutting boards get warped and destroyed.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  Wash wood or eat microplastics from the cutting board.

DanielHB 2y ago

Changing handles in busses/trains from metal to plastic probably killed more people than a lot of other common causes. Everyone is touching those things, they are dirtier than cash.