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> Seems like in most cases the state is more pro-israel than the population. Not really. Go check the results of the popular vote for Eurovision. Israel came i

by ars 2y ago

> Seems like in most cases the state is more pro-israel than the population. Not really. Go check the results of the popular vote for Eurovision. Israel came in second. There's a huge quiet population that is pro-Israel. They don't make noise with protests though, so some people don't realize they exist.

jltsiren 2y ago
If there are 25 candidates, how many votes do you need to come in second? And how many supporters do you need for those votes, when it's pay-to-vote and everyone can vote as many times as they want? The fact that Israel didn't win the popular vote suggests that the support for them is not particularly strong in Europe.
- ars 2y ago
  > The fact that Israel didn't win the popular vote suggests that the support for them is not particularly strong in Europe. They came in second place. How is that "not particularly strong"? And the difference between the popular vote and the jury vote was especially dramatic for Israel. No one expected anything else though......
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    You don't need much support to win when everyone else's votes are split between 24 candidates. And there is already a precedent for strong popular support. In 2022, Ukraine won the popular vote with 439 points, with 239 points for the next country. This year, Israel lost with 323 points vs. 337 points for the winner. Ukraine, which came in third, also got pretty close with 307 points. Similar forms of activism, such as petitions and protests, are supposed to demonstrate support for something, but they often end up showing the opposite. Because the absolute number of supporters rarely matters. What's more important is the number of supporters as a fraction of the total, or relative to the expectations. Once upon a time, I was involved in something controversial. There was a petition opposing us, with a very large number of signatures for that context. But the petition ended up strengthening our case, because it showed that the opposition to our plans was no more widespread than what we had assumed. The next elections proved us correct. A large number of people with a particular opinion didn't matter, because they were a small enough fraction of the total.
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    OP described this system as "it's pay-to-vote and everyone can vote as many times as they want". This sounds exactly like the scam that the right wing runs in America regarding the "Best Selling Book lists". There are a number of right wing books on the list each year but it turns out those books are purchased in large bulk by right leaning groups funded by billionaire donors and are then handed out for free at events or dumped on the clearance channels. It gives a fake impression that the books are more popular than they really are and is in effect a way to blunt the effectiveness of left wing thinking. This is also done via channels such as PragerU. Right leaning groups funded by billionaires produce white papers describing their thesis which are then sent out to groups such as PragerU and Ben Shapiro in the form of talking points to be inserted into the narrative of their videos.
spookie 2y ago
I agree, it's easy to be blinded by the protests. The full picture isn't as obvious.
mattfrommars 2y ago
You are right. This explains the current trend that's happening on social media, "being silent is being complicit". There is a huge quiet population that is OKAY with 40k Palestinian bombed by Israeli regime. I had no idea on Eurovision result and to see Israel to be second, I guess people are blind to the genocide
- dotancohen 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - kuerbel 2y ago
    That is not true. It is still at around 40k. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-m... >They showed 24,686 dead which appeared to be a downward revision from the figure of about 35,000 which had been reported earlier in May, with 7,797 children and 4,959 women confirmed dead, about half the toll cited in previous reports. But the UN said on Monday that estimated overall death toll remained about 35,000. >Farhan Haq, a UN spokesperson, said the new smaller numbers reflected those bodies which had been fully identified. The bigger figures included corpses for whom identification has so far not been completed. Haq said it was expected that, as the process of identification continued, the official tolls among women and children would also rise.
- ars 2y ago
  Or, and I assume you have not considered this, but maybe you should, there is no genocide. And virtually everyone except for some noisy activists knows this. You live in a bubble if you think social media represents people. Social media represents the highly motivated ones. It does not reward quiet thinkers, it rewards "useful idiots" who have brainless slogans. The normal people who actually think about things don't participate because they have better things to do than useful idiots. And then you have people like me who also have better things to do, but feel obligated to post occasionally to at least try to reduce the amount of misinformation.
downWidOutaFite 2y ago
That was an astrotrufed campaign funded by Israel, https://twitter.com/InTrustweDoubt/status/1790017956392394793 https://twitter.com/InTrustweDoubt/status/179001795639239479...
- ars 2y ago
  Oh sure, Israel managed to astroturf millions upon millions of votes, and manged to control the votes of around 50% of Europe. Yes, definitely, that's what they did.
  - cess11 2y ago
    Why not? The main reason I can think of would be that they didn't need to 'astroturf' that many, due to europeans generally being conservative and anti-arab or anti-muslim. But they ran a campaign to get votes, and exactly how efficient it was is very hard to pinpoint. Zionists have quite extensive tooling and robust parasocial networks for running propaganda campaigns. Why wouldn't they use that to try and become the next host of the Eurovision pop tournament?
Hikikomori 2y ago
Between so many options to vote on Israel could get the max points from each country with less than 5% of votes. Its disingenuous to portray this as if a majority of Europeans support Israel.

by ars 2y ago

jltsiren 2y ago

If there are 25 candidates, how many votes do you need to come in second? And how many supporters do you need for those votes, when it's pay-to-vote and everyone can vote as many times as they want? The fact that Israel didn't win the popular vote suggests that the support for them is not particularly strong in Europe.

ars 2y ago
> The fact that Israel didn't win the popular vote suggests that the support for them is not particularly strong in Europe. They came in second place. How is that "not particularly strong"? And the difference between the popular vote and the jury vote was especially dramatic for Israel. No one expected anything else though......
- jltsiren 2y ago
  You don't need much support to win when everyone else's votes are split between 24 candidates. And there is already a precedent for strong popular support. In 2022, Ukraine won the popular vote with 439 points, with 239 points for the next country. This year, Israel lost with 323 points vs. 337 points for the winner. Ukraine, which came in third, also got pretty close with 307 points. Similar forms of activism, such as petitions and protests, are supposed to demonstrate support for something, but they often end up showing the opposite. Because the absolute number of supporters rarely matters. What's more important is the number of supporters as a fraction of the total, or relative to the expectations. Once upon a time, I was involved in something controversial. There was a petition opposing us, with a very large number of signatures for that context. But the petition ended up strengthening our case, because it showed that the opposition to our plans was no more widespread than what we had assumed. The next elections proved us correct. A large number of people with a particular opinion didn't matter, because they were a small enough fraction of the total.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  OP described this system as "it's pay-to-vote and everyone can vote as many times as they want". This sounds exactly like the scam that the right wing runs in America regarding the "Best Selling Book lists". There are a number of right wing books on the list each year but it turns out those books are purchased in large bulk by right leaning groups funded by billionaire donors and are then handed out for free at events or dumped on the clearance channels. It gives a fake impression that the books are more popular than they really are and is in effect a way to blunt the effectiveness of left wing thinking. This is also done via channels such as PragerU. Right leaning groups funded by billionaires produce white papers describing their thesis which are then sent out to groups such as PragerU and Ben Shapiro in the form of talking points to be inserted into the narrative of their videos.

spookie 2y ago

I agree, it's easy to be blinded by the protests. The full picture isn't as obvious.

mattfrommars 2y ago

You are right. This explains the current trend that's happening on social media, "being silent is being complicit". There is a huge quiet population that is OKAY with 40k Palestinian bombed by Israeli regime. I had no idea on Eurovision result and to see Israel to be second, I guess people are blind to the genocide

dotancohen 2y ago
[flagged]
- kuerbel 2y ago
  That is not true. It is still at around 40k. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-m... >They showed 24,686 dead which appeared to be a downward revision from the figure of about 35,000 which had been reported earlier in May, with 7,797 children and 4,959 women confirmed dead, about half the toll cited in previous reports. But the UN said on Monday that estimated overall death toll remained about 35,000. >Farhan Haq, a UN spokesperson, said the new smaller numbers reflected those bodies which had been fully identified. The bigger figures included corpses for whom identification has so far not been completed. Haq said it was expected that, as the process of identification continued, the official tolls among women and children would also rise.
ars 2y ago
Or, and I assume you have not considered this, but maybe you should, there is no genocide. And virtually everyone except for some noisy activists knows this. You live in a bubble if you think social media represents people. Social media represents the highly motivated ones. It does not reward quiet thinkers, it rewards "useful idiots" who have brainless slogans. The normal people who actually think about things don't participate because they have better things to do than useful idiots. And then you have people like me who also have better things to do, but feel obligated to post occasionally to at least try to reduce the amount of misinformation.

downWidOutaFite 2y ago

That was an astrotrufed campaign funded by Israel, https://twitter.com/InTrustweDoubt/status/1790017956392394793 https://twitter.com/InTrustweDoubt/status/179001795639239479...

ars 2y ago
Oh sure, Israel managed to astroturf millions upon millions of votes, and manged to control the votes of around 50% of Europe. Yes, definitely, that's what they did.
- cess11 2y ago
  Why not? The main reason I can think of would be that they didn't need to 'astroturf' that many, due to europeans generally being conservative and anti-arab or anti-muslim. But they ran a campaign to get votes, and exactly how efficient it was is very hard to pinpoint. Zionists have quite extensive tooling and robust parasocial networks for running propaganda campaigns. Why wouldn't they use that to try and become the next host of the Eurovision pop tournament?

Hikikomori 2y ago

Between so many options to vote on Israel could get the max points from each country with less than 5% of votes. Its disingenuous to portray this as if a majority of Europeans support Israel.