5 ms·

Human Rights Record of United States in 2011

33 points by phreeza 14y ago

ktizo 14y ago
I sort of like this finger pointing and "Yeah? Well you're no better..." approach to international diplomacy. You never know, it might end up in a round of ethical one-upmanship that goes beyond mere words. Not that I'm holding my breath.
swombat 14y ago
Even though this is hardly HN material, there's some kind of hackerish mindset about reacting to accusations by doing an in-depth "pot, kettle, black" report about the accuser, so I upvoted this. For those of us who keep track of US news, it's pretty obvious that the human rights situation there is "variable", to say the least. You rarely hear about people being wrongly killed by the police in Europe, whereas in the US it appears to be relatively frequent. As for freedom... let's not go there. The easily manipulated US government is probably the single most important political force for evil in the fight to protect our rights online. Anyway, so, totally off-topic, but a smart approach from China...
- phreeza 14y ago
  Thats why I posted it. I was a bit surprised seeing it made the front page, but I thought it was interesting to see this in basically the same language usually used to describe China.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - narag 14y ago
    Europe's population is double USA's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
  - phreeza 14y ago
    Europe as a whole has a larger population than the US, but the US is more homogenous in its culture/language, so your point holds.
    - Morg 14y ago
      China is incredibly larger for same culture/language population numbers, yet it doesn't have half the issues. While this is all propaganda and the article clearly avoids some details, the truth is the situation is really bad and Chinese people have no reason to look up to the US, as much as US people have no reason to look down on China. Right now, as an European, I'd rather live in China than in the US.
      - adventureful 14y ago
        China doesn't have half the issues? That a lie, and then some. There's a very good reason Chen Guangcheng desperately wanted to escape China. China has every bit the racism and nationalism problems that America has. Ask China what they think of the Japanese some time. China is surely very willing to leave the peaceful, successful nation of Taiwan alone, right? It's not like they have any intention of brutally, viciously conquering the island when it's convenient, invading and murdering its people all in the name of reclaiming land that acted as a safe haven for Chinese fleeing from the genocide of Mao (Mao having killed tens of millions of his own people). China is massively belligerent and violent. Should we free Tibet? Oh right, Tibet doesn't really exist any more because they gradually cleansed the entire country of its people and culture. China has radically worse inequality, 3/4 of a billion people living on $1 to $2 dollars per day, half a billion people without proper access to sanitary drinking water or indoor plumbing. China still has half of the poorest 10% of people on the entire planet, meanwhile they're printing billionaires along the eastern coast. China has no systems comparable to medicare, medicaid, or social security. As faulty as they may be in the US, China doesn't even have a real social safety net at all. Chinese workers have absolutely zero rights, and there are no rights to unionize. China has almost zero property rights at all. There is no right to democratic representation in China. There is zero freedom of speech in China. China is even more violent, with mass executions in large stadiums just to clear out crime numbers, regardless of whether those executed are in fact the guilty. 5,000 people were slaughtered execution style in 2009 alone, roughly 50,000 people per decade are killed in execution fashion by the Chinese Government. Texas by comparison executes about 25 people per year, and that gets endless press. China routinely locks down entire villages. Over 200 riots were reported last year alone. They shut off all access to the external world, and proceed to haul off the trouble makers to gulag camps for political prisoners. The propaganda that China doesn't have half the problems of the US is complete bunk.
  - archangel_one 14y ago
    That's not correct; some of us have noticed that by population Europe is in fact larger than the US. Wikipedia says 731 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_po...) although that draws the line further east than some might; the EU covers just over 500 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Un...). So you'd expect the occurrences per 1K pop to happen less frequently in the US.
  - metatronscube 14y ago
    What do you mean? In terms of population? Europe is around 700 million and the US is what 400 million at the most and China is even larger. So given the population trails behind China and Europe, human rights in the US don't look that rosy (neither does the UK for that matter). I mean the US has for some time had the largest prison population on the planet. I'm just putting that out there as well, and try to understand what you are getting at?
- jonnathanson 14y ago
  With all due respect, this is a tall order of false equivalence. The US's track record on human rights, income inequality, etc., is far from spotless. It's borderline infuriating at times. But even to place it in the same ballpark as the PRC's is silly. Consider that, in the US, people were able to protest and stop SOPA and PIPA from coming to pass. In China, the government controls the entire internet. It's actually debatable that we could be having a similar conversation about the government, on a site like this one, were we in China right now. The U.S. detains certain people without warrant or trial in its misguided "war on terror." But the PRC can detain any of its citizens, at any time, for any reason, and often does. It's interesting to consider the hypocrisies and inconsistencies of our own government and society. I'm all for it. But we shouldn't lose sight of reality.
  - Morg 14y ago
    With all due respect, you are blinded by the kool aid my dear. In the US the government controls the entire internet, as well as every information every company holds, including facebook, twitter, google and apple - as well as Intel and Microsoft. The PRC and the US both have "legitimate" ways to detain any citizen or non-citizen at any time, for any reason, and often do. I would like to insist that there is NO difference on that specific point since the patriot act. SOPA and PIPA aren't govt related, they're big content's attempt at having it's own control channel over the internet. By the way, you forget the positive aspects of China, like those emphasized in the article: In a communist country, there's real security. My grandparents were in USSR in the 70's, and many like them said they had absolutely NO FEAR AT ALL letting their kids play outside. That's right dream on. You'll never get that in the US, unless you have your own security.
    - adventureful 14y ago
      Really simple way to answer your false declarations: Then how come Hacker News exists and I can say what I want here? Try that in China some time =)
      - Morg 14y ago
adventureful 14y ago
Right now the most important difference is that in the US you still have democratically elected representation and a substantial freedom of speech component. So long as you have that, you have the potential to change the system peacefully through argumentation / debate / voting etc. Is Obama a terrible President? A great President? Debate it endlessly, but he was elected by a massive wave of popular support in a democratic fashion, beating an opponent (Clinton) that vastly outmatched him in theory. Doesn't mean the US isn't still going to continue driving right off the cliff, but with those pieces in place, it'll be nobody's fault but our own if we don't take the opportunity and remaining critical freedoms to reverse course and fix the system peacefully.
- Morg 14y ago
  Man is it going to burn when you open your eyes ...
  - adventureful 14y ago
    Nope. I'm completely right in what I said, and I was very careful to be specific about it. My eyes are in no way closed, and what you said is not a valid retort, it's proof that you have nothing to say.
    - Morg 14y ago
      "you have the potential to change the system peacefully through argumentation / debate / voting etc." Sure, by voting for one of two parties that have existed for centuries and been sponsored by the same 1% for as long. You have the potential to watch your fellow americans brainwashed a bit more everyday into accepting their function as modern slaves with less and less benefits and more and more stress.
      - adventureful 14y ago
        The American people can wipe out the parties at their leisure, they have chosen not to. Throughout American history, our parties have changed numerous times, some disappear, some rise, some evolve, and that isn't going to stop. Americans get to choose. If they choose to be brainwashed as you call it, then that's their volition. If America collapses, it will be the responsibility of the people that they didn't use their voice while they had it. The Chinese do not get to choose anything. Every time they try - and they have tried - they get violently put down by their own government. In China, nothing like the Occupy movement would ever be tolerated at all, those people would not be allowed to squat on park property and protest, they would not be allowed to march, they would not be allowed to do even a fraction of what they got away with here in the states, and it sure as hell wouldn't all be filmed and put on YouTube for everybody to see. The various movements of the 1960s and 1970s would have been completely impossible in China. Try holding a rally for free unionization rights in China some time, see how that goes. Try openly and expressively declaring your religious beliefs. See how much they love that.
smoyer 14y ago
I suspect we can generate pros and cons for anywhere you might choose to live ... and within the U.S., there's a huge variation in things like violent crime and gun violence from city to city (or in the rural areas). I'm in the U.S. and I can tell you that I don't like the direction our government is heading. And after typing that, I'm not expecting the police to show up (though I am expecting the comment to appear on HN). I'm happy to hear that the Chinese are so happy (and safe, etc) living in China ... everyone should get a chance at happiness.
daniel_solano 14y ago
Just to be clear, this is a report published by the government of China. I don't have the time to read the whole article, but here's a few thoughts: Regarding On life, property and personal security, this section is about violent crime in the U.S. Indubitably, violent crime is particularly bad in some parts of the U.S., but is this part of the 'human rights record' of the federal government? In essence, the Chinese government here is implying that the fact that the U.S. government doesn't outlaw gun ownership results in violent crime. Throughout most of the text, it just strikes me that the notion of what constitutes "human rights" is unclear. Some people believe that human rights are about the recognition of individual liberty and freedom from government intrusion. Others believe that human rights are about achieving equality and freedom from want. The Chinese government is certainly sympathetic to the latter definition, at least in this report. While this is a point of view favoured by many, in the U.S. the former view of human rights is still strong. Finally, some of the points made by the Chinese are simply symbolic. For example, they criticise the U.S. for not ratifying the "Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)". That is true, but the U.S.'s laws and enforcement are considered better than China with respect to CEDAW.

33 points by phreeza 14y ago

ktizo 14y ago

I sort of like this finger pointing and "Yeah? Well you're no better..." approach to international diplomacy. You never know, it might end up in a round of ethical one-upmanship that goes beyond mere words. Not that I'm holding my breath.

swombat 14y ago

Even though this is hardly HN material, there's some kind of hackerish mindset about reacting to accusations by doing an in-depth "pot, kettle, black" report about the accuser, so I upvoted this. For those of us who keep track of US news, it's pretty obvious that the human rights situation there is "variable", to say the least. You rarely hear about people being wrongly killed by the police in Europe, whereas in the US it appears to be relatively frequent. As for freedom... let's not go there. The easily manipulated US government is probably the single most important political force for evil in the fight to protect our rights online. Anyway, so, totally off-topic, but a smart approach from China...

phreeza 14y ago
Thats why I posted it. I was a bit surprised seeing it made the front page, but I thought it was interesting to see this in basically the same language usually used to describe China.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- narag 14y ago
  Europe's population is double USA's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
- phreeza 14y ago
  Europe as a whole has a larger population than the US, but the US is more homogenous in its culture/language, so your point holds.
  - Morg 14y ago
    China is incredibly larger for same culture/language population numbers, yet it doesn't have half the issues. While this is all propaganda and the article clearly avoids some details, the truth is the situation is really bad and Chinese people have no reason to look up to the US, as much as US people have no reason to look down on China. Right now, as an European, I'd rather live in China than in the US.
    - adventureful 14y ago
      China doesn't have half the issues? That a lie, and then some. There's a very good reason Chen Guangcheng desperately wanted to escape China. China has every bit the racism and nationalism problems that America has. Ask China what they think of the Japanese some time. China is surely very willing to leave the peaceful, successful nation of Taiwan alone, right? It's not like they have any intention of brutally, viciously conquering the island when it's convenient, invading and murdering its people all in the name of reclaiming land that acted as a safe haven for Chinese fleeing from the genocide of Mao (Mao having killed tens of millions of his own people). China is massively belligerent and violent. Should we free Tibet? Oh right, Tibet doesn't really exist any more because they gradually cleansed the entire country of its people and culture. China has radically worse inequality, 3/4 of a billion people living on $1 to $2 dollars per day, half a billion people without proper access to sanitary drinking water or indoor plumbing. China still has half of the poorest 10% of people on the entire planet, meanwhile they're printing billionaires along the eastern coast. China has no systems comparable to medicare, medicaid, or social security. As faulty as they may be in the US, China doesn't even have a real social safety net at all. Chinese workers have absolutely zero rights, and there are no rights to unionize. China has almost zero property rights at all. There is no right to democratic representation in China. There is zero freedom of speech in China. China is even more violent, with mass executions in large stadiums just to clear out crime numbers, regardless of whether those executed are in fact the guilty. 5,000 people were slaughtered execution style in 2009 alone, roughly 50,000 people per decade are killed in execution fashion by the Chinese Government. Texas by comparison executes about 25 people per year, and that gets endless press. China routinely locks down entire villages. Over 200 riots were reported last year alone. They shut off all access to the external world, and proceed to haul off the trouble makers to gulag camps for political prisoners. The propaganda that China doesn't have half the problems of the US is complete bunk.
- archangel_one 14y ago
  That's not correct; some of us have noticed that by population Europe is in fact larger than the US. Wikipedia says 731 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe#Total_po...) although that draws the line further east than some might; the EU covers just over 500 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Un...). So you'd expect the occurrences per 1K pop to happen less frequently in the US.
- metatronscube 14y ago
  What do you mean? In terms of population? Europe is around 700 million and the US is what 400 million at the most and China is even larger. So given the population trails behind China and Europe, human rights in the US don't look that rosy (neither does the UK for that matter). I mean the US has for some time had the largest prison population on the planet. I'm just putting that out there as well, and try to understand what you are getting at?
jonnathanson 14y ago
With all due respect, this is a tall order of false equivalence. The US's track record on human rights, income inequality, etc., is far from spotless. It's borderline infuriating at times. But even to place it in the same ballpark as the PRC's is silly. Consider that, in the US, people were able to protest and stop SOPA and PIPA from coming to pass. In China, the government controls the entire internet. It's actually debatable that we could be having a similar conversation about the government, on a site like this one, were we in China right now. The U.S. detains certain people without warrant or trial in its misguided "war on terror." But the PRC can detain any of its citizens, at any time, for any reason, and often does. It's interesting to consider the hypocrisies and inconsistencies of our own government and society. I'm all for it. But we shouldn't lose sight of reality.
- Morg 14y ago
  With all due respect, you are blinded by the kool aid my dear. In the US the government controls the entire internet, as well as every information every company holds, including facebook, twitter, google and apple - as well as Intel and Microsoft. The PRC and the US both have "legitimate" ways to detain any citizen or non-citizen at any time, for any reason, and often do. I would like to insist that there is NO difference on that specific point since the patriot act. SOPA and PIPA aren't govt related, they're big content's attempt at having it's own control channel over the internet. By the way, you forget the positive aspects of China, like those emphasized in the article: In a communist country, there's real security. My grandparents were in USSR in the 70's, and many like them said they had absolutely NO FEAR AT ALL letting their kids play outside. That's right dream on. You'll never get that in the US, unless you have your own security.
  - adventureful 14y ago
    Really simple way to answer your false declarations: Then how come Hacker News exists and I can say what I want here? Try that in China some time =)
    - Morg 14y ago

adventureful 14y ago

Right now the most important difference is that in the US you still have democratically elected representation and a substantial freedom of speech component. So long as you have that, you have the potential to change the system peacefully through argumentation / debate / voting etc. Is Obama a terrible President? A great President? Debate it endlessly, but he was elected by a massive wave of popular support in a democratic fashion, beating an opponent (Clinton) that vastly outmatched him in theory. Doesn't mean the US isn't still going to continue driving right off the cliff, but with those pieces in place, it'll be nobody's fault but our own if we don't take the opportunity and remaining critical freedoms to reverse course and fix the system peacefully.

Morg 14y ago
Man is it going to burn when you open your eyes ...
- adventureful 14y ago
  Nope. I'm completely right in what I said, and I was very careful to be specific about it. My eyes are in no way closed, and what you said is not a valid retort, it's proof that you have nothing to say.
  - Morg 14y ago
    "you have the potential to change the system peacefully through argumentation / debate / voting etc." Sure, by voting for one of two parties that have existed for centuries and been sponsored by the same 1% for as long. You have the potential to watch your fellow americans brainwashed a bit more everyday into accepting their function as modern slaves with less and less benefits and more and more stress.
    - adventureful 14y ago
      The American people can wipe out the parties at their leisure, they have chosen not to. Throughout American history, our parties have changed numerous times, some disappear, some rise, some evolve, and that isn't going to stop. Americans get to choose. If they choose to be brainwashed as you call it, then that's their volition. If America collapses, it will be the responsibility of the people that they didn't use their voice while they had it. The Chinese do not get to choose anything. Every time they try - and they have tried - they get violently put down by their own government. In China, nothing like the Occupy movement would ever be tolerated at all, those people would not be allowed to squat on park property and protest, they would not be allowed to march, they would not be allowed to do even a fraction of what they got away with here in the states, and it sure as hell wouldn't all be filmed and put on YouTube for everybody to see. The various movements of the 1960s and 1970s would have been completely impossible in China. Try holding a rally for free unionization rights in China some time, see how that goes. Try openly and expressively declaring your religious beliefs. See how much they love that.

smoyer 14y ago

I suspect we can generate pros and cons for anywhere you might choose to live ... and within the U.S., there's a huge variation in things like violent crime and gun violence from city to city (or in the rural areas). I'm in the U.S. and I can tell you that I don't like the direction our government is heading. And after typing that, I'm not expecting the police to show up (though I am expecting the comment to appear on HN). I'm happy to hear that the Chinese are so happy (and safe, etc) living in China ... everyone should get a chance at happiness.

daniel_solano 14y ago

Just to be clear, this is a report published by the government of China. I don't have the time to read the whole article, but here's a few thoughts: Regarding On life, property and personal security, this section is about violent crime in the U.S. Indubitably, violent crime is particularly bad in some parts of the U.S., but is this part of the 'human rights record' of the federal government? In essence, the Chinese government here is implying that the fact that the U.S. government doesn't outlaw gun ownership results in violent crime. Throughout most of the text, it just strikes me that the notion of what constitutes "human rights" is unclear. Some people believe that human rights are about the recognition of individual liberty and freedom from government intrusion. Others believe that human rights are about achieving equality and freedom from want. The Chinese government is certainly sympathetic to the latter definition, at least in this report. While this is a point of view favoured by many, in the U.S. the former view of human rights is still strong. Finally, some of the points made by the Chinese are simply symbolic. For example, they criticise the U.S. for not ratifying the "Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)". That is true, but the U.S.'s laws and enforcement are considered better than China with respect to CEDAW.