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I’m not talking about the Nakba, I’m talking about the situation in the West Bank today. It’s horrible that so many Palestinians had to leave during the Nakba,

I’m not talking about the Nakba, I’m talking about the situation in the West Bank today. It’s horrible that so many Palestinians had to leave during the Nakba, but since the ones who stayed were eventually granted citizenship and legal equality, I think it’s fair to say that Israel proper is administered democratically today — similar to the situation of Native Americans in the U.S. But people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have no way to become Israeli citizens (unless they are Jewish), despite those territories being controlled by Israel, probably permanently. That is clearly undemocratic.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> That is clearly undemocratic Agreed. But that doesn’t unmake Israel a democracy.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  I don't see how there is a meaningful difference "administers large chunks of territory undemocratically" and "is not a democracy" in practice.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > don't see how there is a meaningful difference "administers large chunks of territory undemocratically" and "is not a democracy" in practice The Federalist Papers are the deep dive. The Wikipedia article is a good start [1]. If you’re excluding classic members of a set with your measure, your measure is inconsistent with the classic set. You may argue Athens wasn’t a true democracy, but that obviously puts your definition of a true democracy in a special bucket. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      If we're quoting Wikipedia: > South Africa has been a democracy since the end of apartheid in 1994. People in the present day use the word "democracy" in a way that would exclude either ancient Athens or the Jim Crow-era US. You are the one who's insisting on an unusual definition from thousands of years ago; my definition is the mainstream one. Furthermore, your "classical" definition is irrelevant, since we're talking about Israel the modern state in 2024 which should be judged by present-day standards.
dunekid 2y ago
>But people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have no way to become Israeli citizens (unless they are Jewish) >That is clearly undemocratic Not only undemocratic, but it is running an apartheid. Not to mention the complete denial of right to return for displaced Palestinians, not even acknowledging it.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> That is clearly undemocratic Agreed. But that doesn’t unmake Israel a democracy.

School-Cotton 2y ago
I don't see how there is a meaningful difference "administers large chunks of territory undemocratically" and "is not a democracy" in practice.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > don't see how there is a meaningful difference "administers large chunks of territory undemocratically" and "is not a democracy" in practice The Federalist Papers are the deep dive. The Wikipedia article is a good start [1]. If you’re excluding classic members of a set with your measure, your measure is inconsistent with the classic set. You may argue Athens wasn’t a true democracy, but that obviously puts your definition of a true democracy in a special bucket. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    If we're quoting Wikipedia: > South Africa has been a democracy since the end of apartheid in 1994. People in the present day use the word "democracy" in a way that would exclude either ancient Athens or the Jim Crow-era US. You are the one who's insisting on an unusual definition from thousands of years ago; my definition is the mainstream one. Furthermore, your "classical" definition is irrelevant, since we're talking about Israel the modern state in 2024 which should be judged by present-day standards.

dunekid 2y ago

>But people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have no way to become Israeli citizens (unless they are Jewish) >That is clearly undemocratic Not only undemocratic, but it is running an apartheid. Not to mention the complete denial of right to return for displaced Palestinians, not even acknowledging it.