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The better comparison is between Hamas and the current Israeli executive branch, not the state of Israel per se. Even so, I see no equating the two. The ICC is

The better comparison is between Hamas and the current Israeli executive branch, not the state of Israel per se. Even so, I see no equating the two. The ICC is implicating both parties with war crimes, not claiming they are equal

doctorpangloss 2y ago
Is it possible to conduct a lawful urban war? I might not want to ever be on either side of such a war, but that seems to be the biggest, intellectually honest hole in the ICC's warrants. After all they are supposed to be an alternative to the justice system of violence.
- istjohn 2y ago
  The US fought in urban settings in Iraq without putting civilian populations under siege and starvation. By all appearances, Israel isn't even trying to conduct a lawful urban war.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    Is it possible to win an urban war lawfully? Iraq is kind of a terrible example. Over a hundred thousand civilians died in Iraq. Maybe most of them died in urban combat settings. Isn't the "Battle of Fallujah" a whitewash of the Siege of Fallujah? (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2012/1/4/seven-years-after-sieges-fallujah-struggles https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2012/1/4/seven-years-afte...) "Early Target of Offensive Is a Hospital" (https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/08/world/middleeast/early-target-of-offensive-is-a-hospital.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/08/world/middleeast/early-ta...) "US Admits Using White Phosphorus in Fallujah" (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/iraq.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/iraq.usa) This isn't whataboutism. War is horrible.
    - megous 2y ago
      US fought a war with a well armed state. Israel started by dropping bombs on hundreds of sleeping families, leveling entire neighborhoods and after a month of that, started fighting some ragtag scavenger fighters (non-state actor), who have almost no external support, while continuing to level everything remotely related to governance, culture, or other social institutions that came in their path for seemingly no reason but the desire to completely erase possiblity for Palestinians to live in Gaza. Seems more like an extermination campaign, and no, you can't fight that lawfully.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > Is it possible to conduct a lawful urban war? Yes. > that seems to be the biggest, intellectually honest hole in the ICC's warrants. No warrants have been issued nor have the specifics of any of the charges sought, beyond the names of the crimes, been made public. No oene can talk about what the holes in the charges that might ne issued in the future are, only of strawman charges that they have invented to argue against.

doctorpangloss 2y ago

Is it possible to conduct a lawful urban war? I might not want to ever be on either side of such a war, but that seems to be the biggest, intellectually honest hole in the ICC's warrants. After all they are supposed to be an alternative to the justice system of violence.

istjohn 2y ago
The US fought in urban settings in Iraq without putting civilian populations under siege and starvation. By all appearances, Israel isn't even trying to conduct a lawful urban war.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  Is it possible to win an urban war lawfully? Iraq is kind of a terrible example. Over a hundred thousand civilians died in Iraq. Maybe most of them died in urban combat settings. Isn't the "Battle of Fallujah" a whitewash of the Siege of Fallujah? (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2012/1/4/seven-years-after-sieges-fallujah-struggles https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2012/1/4/seven-years-afte...) "Early Target of Offensive Is a Hospital" (https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/08/world/middleeast/early-target-of-offensive-is-a-hospital.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/08/world/middleeast/early-ta...) "US Admits Using White Phosphorus in Fallujah" (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/iraq.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/iraq.usa) This isn't whataboutism. War is horrible.
  - megous 2y ago
    US fought a war with a well armed state. Israel started by dropping bombs on hundreds of sleeping families, leveling entire neighborhoods and after a month of that, started fighting some ragtag scavenger fighters (non-state actor), who have almost no external support, while continuing to level everything remotely related to governance, culture, or other social institutions that came in their path for seemingly no reason but the desire to completely erase possiblity for Palestinians to live in Gaza. Seems more like an extermination campaign, and no, you can't fight that lawfully.
dragonwriter 2y ago
> Is it possible to conduct a lawful urban war? Yes. > that seems to be the biggest, intellectually honest hole in the ICC's warrants. No warrants have been issued nor have the specifics of any of the charges sought, beyond the names of the crimes, been made public. No oene can talk about what the holes in the charges that might ne issued in the future are, only of strawman charges that they have invented to argue against.