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I honestly don't understand what the whole issue with web design is about (it's as far away as possible from my domain of expertise, so this is a statement of i

I honestly don't understand what the whole issue with web design is about (it's as far away as possible from my domain of expertise, so this is a statement of ignorance, not of arrogance). A "motherfucking website" without any css nor js is perfectly readable and usable on all devices and browsers. Users can select their preferred font sizes, and even colors. It is just like an ebook, that is readable everywhere, and responsive with user-chosen display setups and settings. What is the problem, then? Some websites want to look "fancier", and then they specify styles in manner that is incompatible with some usage patterns? This is an entirely self-inflicted problem. The problem did not exist in the first place, they created it. I have real trouble accepting that "web design" is not a bogus and fully useless human endeavour. I hope someone around here enlightens me to the contrary.

wcrichton 2y ago
Do you believe that you could implement the Airbnb interface without any CSS or Javascript?
- marssaxman 2y ago
  Does the Airbnb interface need to be implemented at all?
  - recursive 2y ago
    Only if they intend for their business to continue existing.
    - marssaxman 2y ago
      An interface, sure; but the specific interface they are currently using, to which the previous comment was referring? Of course not.
- enriquto 2y ago
  > Do you believe that you could implement the Airbnb interface without any CSS or Javascript? No, I don't. It has scrollable maps, for example. Those require a Javascript-operated canvas. What I don't understand is why it needs CSS or Javascript for the rest of the interface. It's just text and photos. An empty css with static html would be enough for that, and convey exactly the same information.
  - afavour 2y ago
    Do you believe the CSS serves absolutely no purpose other than just looking pretty? I’m also a proponent of simple pages wherever they can be made but we’re not the only audience on the internet. Different people find different UIs effective. For example: Airbnb (last I looked, anyway) has a little mini carousel in the thumbnail of a listing. I found it mildly useful. I imagine a company the size of Airbnb are tracking if people use that widget so it’s probably earned its place in the interface. Standing outside the whole thing with no data and saying “none of this is necessary” strikes me as an unhelpful perspective. Neither you nor I actually know.
  - xtalx 2y ago
    The web would pretty bland and less usable without CSS. White background and full page width Times New Roman paragraphs, inline images.
    - recursive 2y ago
      User agents could still pick colors! And don't forget about <body bgcolor="#aabbcc">
- wruza 2y ago
  I mean if I wanted, I could implement any of Airbnb, Twitter, Facebook, HN, Medium in e.g. GTK2 and people could use them with their favorite theme without any issue. Does that count as "without CSS or Javascript", in a non-pedantic sense?
wruza 2y ago
I'd prefer standard controls with a set of universal downloadable themes (as a way to avoid writing it from scratch myself) to literally any modern "website design". It adds no value except for selling, but it's their goal, not mine. Users can select their preferred font sizes Browser vendors actively disrupted these features for decades, cause most of them became biggest sales/tracking platforms.
ximm 2y ago
I often feel the same, so I will try to give a serious answer: Most web design today is driven by branding. Everyone seems to feel like they have to be express their uniqueness. This is awful and can widely be regarded as a bad move. I fully agree with you on that front. On the other hand, the default browser styles are bad in their own way. Look at http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ for details. In practice, some degree of web design is necessary. Also, you can create art and beauty on a computer. A well designed website can elevate the experience, just like a well designed book or chair. Finally, HTML is limited in what it can do. JavaScript, CSS, and WAI-ARIA together form the low-level technologies to extend the web with new functionality. See https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/ https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/ for details. In summary, I would say that most web design is useless, but not all of it.

wcrichton 2y ago

Do you believe that you could implement the Airbnb interface without any CSS or Javascript?

marssaxman 2y ago
Does the Airbnb interface need to be implemented at all?
- recursive 2y ago
  Only if they intend for their business to continue existing.
  - marssaxman 2y ago
    An interface, sure; but the specific interface they are currently using, to which the previous comment was referring? Of course not.
enriquto 2y ago
> Do you believe that you could implement the Airbnb interface without any CSS or Javascript? No, I don't. It has scrollable maps, for example. Those require a Javascript-operated canvas. What I don't understand is why it needs CSS or Javascript for the rest of the interface. It's just text and photos. An empty css with static html would be enough for that, and convey exactly the same information.
- afavour 2y ago
  Do you believe the CSS serves absolutely no purpose other than just looking pretty? I’m also a proponent of simple pages wherever they can be made but we’re not the only audience on the internet. Different people find different UIs effective. For example: Airbnb (last I looked, anyway) has a little mini carousel in the thumbnail of a listing. I found it mildly useful. I imagine a company the size of Airbnb are tracking if people use that widget so it’s probably earned its place in the interface. Standing outside the whole thing with no data and saying “none of this is necessary” strikes me as an unhelpful perspective. Neither you nor I actually know.
- xtalx 2y ago
  The web would pretty bland and less usable without CSS. White background and full page width Times New Roman paragraphs, inline images.
  - recursive 2y ago
    User agents could still pick colors! And don't forget about <body bgcolor="#aabbcc">
wruza 2y ago
I mean if I wanted, I could implement any of Airbnb, Twitter, Facebook, HN, Medium in e.g. GTK2 and people could use them with their favorite theme without any issue. Does that count as "without CSS or Javascript", in a non-pedantic sense?

wruza 2y ago

I'd prefer standard controls with a set of universal downloadable themes (as a way to avoid writing it from scratch myself) to literally any modern "website design". It adds no value except for selling, but it's their goal, not mine. Users can select their preferred font sizes Browser vendors actively disrupted these features for decades, cause most of them became biggest sales/tracking platforms.

ximm 2y ago

I often feel the same, so I will try to give a serious answer: Most web design today is driven by branding. Everyone seems to feel like they have to be express their uniqueness. This is awful and can widely be regarded as a bad move. I fully agree with you on that front. On the other hand, the default browser styles are bad in their own way. Look at http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ for details. In practice, some degree of web design is necessary. Also, you can create art and beauty on a computer. A well designed website can elevate the experience, just like a well designed book or chair. Finally, HTML is limited in what it can do. JavaScript, CSS, and WAI-ARIA together form the low-level technologies to extend the web with new functionality. See https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/ https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/ for details. In summary, I would say that most web design is useless, but not all of it.