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I mean they're all terrible at this point, but Israel has been digging this hole for a while, it's not going to be easy to get out. Doesn't mean it's not worth

I mean they're all terrible at this point, but Israel has been digging this hole for a while, it's not going to be easy to get out. Doesn't mean it's not worth trying to stop digging.

pdonis 2y ago
> Israel has been digging this hole for a while No, Israel has been trying to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization which has explicitly declared that its objective is to destroy Israel. What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? There is no stable middle ground here. That's what much of the commentary on this situation seems to be missing. This is an existential conflict between Israel and Hamas (note that I said "Hamas", not "the Palestinians"--they're not the same): the only stable endpoint is that one or the other ceases to exist. And Hamas is the side that chose to make it that way. So I'm really struggling to see what possible options Israel has other than what they are doing.
- harimau777 2y ago
  > What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? They could form a state with equal rights, including right of return, for Jews and Palestinians.
  - mupuff1234 2y ago
    That would be the end of Israel as a functioning state (Jewish or not) You really think a country can double it's population overnight bringing even more division without it crumbling? You'll just end up with another Lebanon. A two state solution is the only thing that can make sense short/medium term. Longer term after decades of peace you can open the borders and create perhaps a union of sort. A one state solution is detached - it's just not a viable option, and even if you believe it's the right thing to do it just doesn't seem wise.
    - octopoc 2y ago
      A single state solution is the only long term solution. Unless we accept that ethnostates are good for everyone. Israel will have a hard time bringing in the Palestinians, but the US created reservations and the native American population isn't trying to kill everyone else. Israel needs to learn by doing it that diversity is their strength. Prosperity can do a lot towards killing the shared stories that cause people to want to go kill the people in the neighboring country. Grandpa's story about losing his home won't be as stirring when you're not being bombed and starved by the same group of people who stole Grandpa's home. Especially when they give back Grandpa's home.
      - mupuff1234 2y ago
        I'm all for prosperity, which is why I think trying to merge two cultures over overnight will just result in chaos and violence. Especially since the groups are around the same size and the territory is tiny - if you actually think about the practically of such a solution you'll realize it's not viable. Do you really think the new nation wouldn't just delve into chaos Lebanon style? Might as well just sentence everyone to eternal conflict. How is starting with two states and later on creating a union type entity not better for everyone? Let's say you had to approach this as an engineering problem of merging two very different branches/companies/etc, how would you approach it? And re US, they basically committed genocide and ended up absorbing a minority, the situation in Israel is different as it's similar sized populations on a fraction of the land.
      - pdonis 2y ago
        > the US created reservations and the native American population isn't trying to kill everyone else. Not now, but there was a long period during which native Americans were seriously pushing back and a lot of people on both sides were killed.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- richrichie 2y ago
  > which has explicitly declared that its objective is to destroy Israel This is not a serious argument. Israel has arguably the strongest military in ME. Forget the ragtag Hamas, no country in ME - including Turkey - can destroy Israel. Israel has nukes and Hamas has hand gliders for airforce. Hamas rockets are like glorified firecrackers. There are crazies all over the world with all kinds of crazy manifestos. That is not a license to kill and starve civilians en masse. Oct 7 was a serious security lapse on the part of Israel. It is clear that the guilty are busy distracting the population from an objective investigation and trials to punish people who are responsible for the lapses, just like what happened after 9-11. Doing that improves Israel’s long term security. But it is unlikely to happen.

I mean they're all terrible at this point, but Israel has been digging this hole for a while, it's not going to be easy to get out. Doesn't mean it's not worth trying to stop digging.

pdonis 2y ago

> Israel has been digging this hole for a while No, Israel has been trying to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization which has explicitly declared that its objective is to destroy Israel. What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? There is no stable middle ground here. That's what much of the commentary on this situation seems to be missing. This is an existential conflict between Israel and Hamas (note that I said "Hamas", not "the Palestinians"--they're not the same): the only stable endpoint is that one or the other ceases to exist. And Hamas is the side that chose to make it that way. So I'm really struggling to see what possible options Israel has other than what they are doing.

harimau777 2y ago
> What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? They could form a state with equal rights, including right of return, for Jews and Palestinians.
- mupuff1234 2y ago
  That would be the end of Israel as a functioning state (Jewish or not) You really think a country can double it's population overnight bringing even more division without it crumbling? You'll just end up with another Lebanon. A two state solution is the only thing that can make sense short/medium term. Longer term after decades of peace you can open the borders and create perhaps a union of sort. A one state solution is detached - it's just not a viable option, and even if you believe it's the right thing to do it just doesn't seem wise.
  - octopoc 2y ago
    A single state solution is the only long term solution. Unless we accept that ethnostates are good for everyone. Israel will have a hard time bringing in the Palestinians, but the US created reservations and the native American population isn't trying to kill everyone else. Israel needs to learn by doing it that diversity is their strength. Prosperity can do a lot towards killing the shared stories that cause people to want to go kill the people in the neighboring country. Grandpa's story about losing his home won't be as stirring when you're not being bombed and starved by the same group of people who stole Grandpa's home. Especially when they give back Grandpa's home.
    - mupuff1234 2y ago
      I'm all for prosperity, which is why I think trying to merge two cultures over overnight will just result in chaos and violence. Especially since the groups are around the same size and the territory is tiny - if you actually think about the practically of such a solution you'll realize it's not viable. Do you really think the new nation wouldn't just delve into chaos Lebanon style? Might as well just sentence everyone to eternal conflict. How is starting with two states and later on creating a union type entity not better for everyone? Let's say you had to approach this as an engineering problem of merging two very different branches/companies/etc, how would you approach it? And re US, they basically committed genocide and ended up absorbing a minority, the situation in Israel is different as it's similar sized populations on a fraction of the land.
    - pdonis 2y ago
      > the US created reservations and the native American population isn't trying to kill everyone else. Not now, but there was a long period during which native Americans were seriously pushing back and a lot of people on both sides were killed.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
richrichie 2y ago
> which has explicitly declared that its objective is to destroy Israel This is not a serious argument. Israel has arguably the strongest military in ME. Forget the ragtag Hamas, no country in ME - including Turkey - can destroy Israel. Israel has nukes and Hamas has hand gliders for airforce. Hamas rockets are like glorified firecrackers. There are crazies all over the world with all kinds of crazy manifestos. That is not a license to kill and starve civilians en masse. Oct 7 was a serious security lapse on the part of Israel. It is clear that the guilty are busy distracting the population from an objective investigation and trials to punish people who are responsible for the lapses, just like what happened after 9-11. Doing that improves Israel’s long term security. But it is unlikely to happen.