7 ms·

Dutch parliament rejects ACTA, prohibits government to sign or ratify.

270 points by aerique 14y ago

aerique 14y ago
Especially resolution 3 is pertinent: "3. Resolution of Member Verhoeven (21 501-30, No. 288), 29 May 2012 (original Dutch text in PDF) The House of Representatives, - observes that treaties like ACTA lead to a further formalization of copyrights rules on the international level, - observes that such treaties are very difficult to modify and as a result can be an extra impediment for future reforms of copyright law, - observes that strict enforcement of intellectual property on the internet is no solution for the ongoing difficulties regarding copyright law and interferes with internet freedom, - requests the government to vote against new similar treaties, - requests the government to focus the copyright policy on economic growth opportunities offered by the internet through, amongst others things, new revenue models for legal content. Verhoeven (D66 – Democrats 66)" I hope this will be a catalyst for other countries to implement similar regulations.
- nodata 14y ago
  How strong are these "observes" and "requests"? Why not "requires"?
  - tijs 14y ago
    Observes are the argumentation, requests are the basis for new law.
  - gpvos 14y ago
    These are motions, which are not binding, and the government can ignore them if it wishes, although it may then have a political problem and parliament might send it home with a "motion of distrust", which the government cannot ignore. However, these motions were very broadly supported: only CDA voted against motion 286; motion 287 was accepted by general acclaim; only VVD voted against motion 288. (CDA and VVD are the two parties currently forming a minority caretaker government.)
    - wwwhizz 14y ago
      Strictly speaking, there is no law dictating the government has to leave when receiving a "motion of distrust", although it never happened they did not.
      - adavies42 14y ago
        is that in theory where the queen steps in?
        gpvos 14y ago
        Not sure; it has never happened yet and it would certainly get ugly, so she might. She does usually step in at a few other places, though. We're getting off-topic here; for a very nice but not yet complete overview, see http://www.quirksmode.org/politics/ http://www.quirksmode.org/politics/ .
        gpvos 14y ago
        Hmm, I may have misunderstood adavies42 slightly here; I thought (s)he meant what would happen if a motion of no confidence were ignored, which has never happened and would be quite a shock. When a motion of no confidence is passed by parliament, either against the entire government or against one or more of its members, which has happened several times, usually the target of the motion goes to the queen to resign; the governmental parties then seek a replacement who has to be officially appointed by the queen. If the entire government resigns, the queen usually asks for advice from all political leaders, and then there are several options, all of which involve her, since she officially appoints the members of the government. In practice, power is in the hands of the political parties; she does have some possibilities to influence the process, but not very much.
        adavies42 14y ago
        > I thought (s)he meant what would happen if a motion of no confidence were ignored yes, that's what i meant. thanks for the info!
- rickmb 14y ago
  > an extra impediment for future reforms of copyright law This is the really important part (ACTA was almost dead anyway). The continued push for ever more draconian copyright enforcement measures is slowly creating a backlash that puts copyright reform on the political agenda. Once copyright reform is seriously on the agenda, all ACTA-like initiatives that enhance copyright enforcement are likely to be shelved indefinitely, and we finally get some breathing room for a real debate on copyright.
rsanchez1 14y ago
Earth to Congress, Europe is starting to turn against this treaty drafted in secret, when are you going to come out against this on the side of the American people?
- mtgx 14y ago
  Well, Sen. Wyden has asked the Obama administration to send ACTA to Senate for ratification, but the Obama administration refuses to do so, and says ACTA, which is a global treaty, can be made and signed just by the president. Something about that argument sounds very wrong to me.
  - KoulMomo 14y ago
    Sen Wyden has been great on these issues. See also http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120523/11415519051/wyden-to-obama-hollywood-shouldnt-know-more-about-tpp-than-congress.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120523/11415519051/wyden-... Where the Obama administration would not share the contents of the TTP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) agreement with congress or senate, while representatives of U.S. corporations are being consulted on the agreement. Crony Capitalism at its worst.
    - snowwrestler 14y ago
      Without commenting on the TPP specifically, I will point out that this is the process that the Constitution sets out for international treaties: the executive branch negotiates them as they see fit, then the agreement is presented to the Congress for ratification. If TPP makes it that far (no guarantee it will), the Congress will have plenty of opportunity to read and react to it--especially now that Fast Track has expired. Just look at how many times the negotiators had to go back to the table on the South Korea and Colombia free trade agreements to satisfy Congressional objections.
  - snowwrestler 14y ago
    ACTA could be signed in the U.S. without Senate ratification because it doesn't change a single thing in U.S. domestic IP law, so there really isn't anything for the Senate to ratify. Wyden knows this; his request is largely grandstanding. This is not necessarily true in other countries, which is why their legislators are getting involved.
dutchbrit 14y ago
As a Dutch resident (British citizen), who's working on a file sharing startup, this news really makes me happy. Hopefully other countries will follow
- davedx 14y ago
  Also a Brit in NL. Net neutrality and this news makes me very happy too, though I actually work (indirectly) for Hollywood!
  - dutchbrit 14y ago
    Seriously? Where are you based?!
iscrewyou 14y ago
It's things like these that makes it hard for me to ignore that the U.S. is heading down the wrong path and most of its governmental arms are controlled by corporations. Let the people decide on something for once.
Kartificial 14y ago
Good news to start off the day. I hope many will follow.
SjuulJanssen 14y ago
I'm happy that privacy is still on the political agenda
jwr 14y ago
Thank you, Netherlands! (from the Polish, whose Prime Minister initially thought signing ACTA was a good idea "because everyone else did")
- ktizo 14y ago
  Which is a marginally better excuse than the standard 4 year old's "someone else did it and ran away", but only just.
  - ajuc 14y ago
    For the record - Polish PM backed off after few weeks of mass protests in Poland, and said he was wrong, and Poland won't ratificate ACTA. I still don't like him for his other decisions, and the lies he told about ACTA before he changed his mind, but at least he can say he was wrong.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      Fair point, however I admit I am a bit of a cynical bastard and so suspect that most politicians would swear the earth was flat, if they thought for one second it would extend their time in power.
      - darkestkhan 14y ago
        That is main reason why he (Polish PM) has to be very wary now - if he didn't back down from ACTA he wouldn't stand a chance in next elections. And there is still some time before we will have them but if he makes more blunders it will be his political death.
maurits 14y ago
Two critical notes to the general "holland is fantastic" fuzzy feelings. The Netherlands are European leaders when it comes to wiretapping communications. Its laws gives the intelligence communities extensive powers to tap, filter and store. This was already the case well before 9/11. Secondly, privacy is usually not a political or social issue of any real significance.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jkn 14y ago
  The Netherlands recently passed a law on Net neutrality stating that a warrant is required for internet wiretapping: https://www.bof.nl/2012/05/08/netherlands-first-country-in-europe-with-net-neutrality/ https://www.bof.nl/2012/05/08/netherlands-first-country-in-e... I don't see anything wrong with wiretapping with a warrant. Do people who argue against them also argue against home search warrants?
  - joelhaasnoot 14y ago
    Little bit ironic BTW, seeing as The Netherlands has one of the highest phone wiretapping rates in the world.
    - icoder 14y ago
      True, however the phone wiretapping rates are subject of debate as well. Phone wiretapping is simply one way a country can decide on by which criminal activities should be traced. Other countries do so in different ways, and comparing them, especially in different jurisdictions is not straightforward. For civilians that do not exercise criminal activities, wiretapping will be less of an influence on their lives as ACTA or non-net-neutrality would be. On average.
    - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
      The difficulty here is that NL has a strong oversight on wiretapping - so whereas in the UK, a single wiretap warrant can get other phone numbers on as riders (usually one cop doing a favour for another cop), which makes the UK numbers look smaller, the NL is more open and so has larger looking wiretaps.
Mordor 14y ago
The last few years have been particularly crazy - Apple's pursuit of what is essentially a black rectangle being the oddest of all. Looking forward to the next generation of laws appropriate to the growth of the internet and the people who use it...
gglanzani 14y ago
And on the other and now the majority of ISP are blocking access to the PirateBay. As much as I like the Netherlands (living here from 2006, I'm Italian), these inconsistencies in their systems are really annoying[^1]. Net neutrality, ACTA rejection on one side, blocking web sites on the other. [^1]: I won't mention the other kind of inconsistencies, but if you really curious about some health care system madness, I encourage you to readhttp://blog.lanzani.nl/2011/doctors/ http://blog.lanzani.nl/2011/doctors/
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- icoder 14y ago
  Really? The ISP-PirateBay blockade was ordered by a judge based on existing legislation. The field of net neutrality, privacy, copyright/piracy is changing and complex: I don't think it is reasonable to expect full consistency now. Tell me which country is consistent, and is so democratically? At least the Dutch have set a course, and in my opinion it is a good one. [I read your blog entry, sorry to hear about your knee but otherwise I find your story single sided and your statement that doctors get money for not helping is so crude and slander-like that it needs citation, in my opinion - if it were not for the fact that I have to email you to comment on the post I would have placed this part of my reaction over there.]
  - gglanzani 14y ago
    Not saying that other countries are better, just saying that there are still a lot of inconsistencies. [As for the doctors: for what regards the money, this is what I've heard. Of course there will be nothing official but: I know 2 (!) persons who died of uncured cancer, because Dutch doctors just told them to take pain killers (not kidding). Then I know other 2 (we were close) that had to go to their home countries to get the cancer cured, because here the doctors told them to wait a couple of weeks. Once home their doctors hospitalized them immediately, saying that further delays would have killed them. A PhD student from Russia, also here in the Netherlands, emailed me after reading my blog post, because the same happened to his knee and the doctor didn't want to treat him. My mother-in-law had kidney stones, and what did the doctor say? Drink some warm milk. She had to fight 3 days to be sent to the hospital. I'm here since 2006, but I already met so many people who where shocked by the incompetence of Dutch doctors, that I could write for hours. The entry in my blog reflects some facts happened directly to me or my family.]
lucb1e 14y ago
Net neutrality, a lot of ISPs counter-suing BREIN for having to block thepiratebay, and now this. I love the Netherlands ^^
Casperin 14y ago
It's a bit scary that it is news worthy that some politicians stood up for the people. Well done though :)
bgentry 14y ago
Wow, is this really what bills in the Netherlands look like? 500 words, half a page? How do we get our govt to stop churning out multi-thousand page piles of pork-barreling instead of simple, straightforward resolutions like this?
- scoot 14y ago
  Charge politicians by the word for submitted bills?
- speleding 14y ago
  Actually, it's a "motion", a (strong though non-binding) suggestion from the house to the cabinet that they should change the regulations to accommodate the motion. The actual law or laws that will be changed or created are not nearly as pretty. (Although judges here are allowed to pass judgement in the "spirit of the law" rather than taking the text literally, so there is less of an incentive to get every little detail nailed down on paper)
- eru 14y ago
  The US constitution isn't too verbose, either. (But you can still see the murky compromises, if you look carefully.)

270 points by aerique 14y ago

Especially resolution 3 is pertinent: "3. Resolution of Member Verhoeven (21 501-30, No. 288), 29 May 2012 (original Dutch text in PDF) The House of Representatives, - observes that treaties like ACTA lead to a further formalization of copyrights rules on the international level, - observes that such treaties are very difficult to modify and as a result can be an extra impediment for future reforms of copyright law, - observes that strict enforcement of intellectual property on the internet is no solution for the ongoing difficulties regarding copyright law and interferes with internet freedom, - requests the government to vote against new similar treaties, - requests the government to focus the copyright policy on economic growth opportunities offered by the internet through, amongst others things, new revenue models for legal content. Verhoeven (D66 – Democrats 66)" I hope this will be a catalyst for other countries to implement similar regulations.

nodata 14y ago
How strong are these "observes" and "requests"? Why not "requires"?
- tijs 14y ago
  Observes are the argumentation, requests are the basis for new law.
- gpvos 14y ago
  These are motions, which are not binding, and the government can ignore them if it wishes, although it may then have a political problem and parliament might send it home with a "motion of distrust", which the government cannot ignore. However, these motions were very broadly supported: only CDA voted against motion 286; motion 287 was accepted by general acclaim; only VVD voted against motion 288. (CDA and VVD are the two parties currently forming a minority caretaker government.)
  - wwwhizz 14y ago
    Strictly speaking, there is no law dictating the government has to leave when receiving a "motion of distrust", although it never happened they did not.
    - adavies42 14y ago
      is that in theory where the queen steps in?
      - gpvos 14y ago
        Not sure; it has never happened yet and it would certainly get ugly, so she might. She does usually step in at a few other places, though. We're getting off-topic here; for a very nice but not yet complete overview, see http://www.quirksmode.org/politics/ http://www.quirksmode.org/politics/ .
        gpvos 14y ago
        Hmm, I may have misunderstood adavies42 slightly here; I thought (s)he meant what would happen if a motion of no confidence were ignored, which has never happened and would be quite a shock. When a motion of no confidence is passed by parliament, either against the entire government or against one or more of its members, which has happened several times, usually the target of the motion goes to the queen to resign; the governmental parties then seek a replacement who has to be officially appointed by the queen. If the entire government resigns, the queen usually asks for advice from all political leaders, and then there are several options, all of which involve her, since she officially appoints the members of the government. In practice, power is in the hands of the political parties; she does have some possibilities to influence the process, but not very much.
        adavies42 14y ago
        > I thought (s)he meant what would happen if a motion of no confidence were ignored yes, that's what i meant. thanks for the info!
rickmb 14y ago
> an extra impediment for future reforms of copyright law This is the really important part (ACTA was almost dead anyway). The continued push for ever more draconian copyright enforcement measures is slowly creating a backlash that puts copyright reform on the political agenda. Once copyright reform is seriously on the agenda, all ACTA-like initiatives that enhance copyright enforcement are likely to be shelved indefinitely, and we finally get some breathing room for a real debate on copyright.

rsanchez1 14y ago

Earth to Congress, Europe is starting to turn against this treaty drafted in secret, when are you going to come out against this on the side of the American people?

mtgx 14y ago
Well, Sen. Wyden has asked the Obama administration to send ACTA to Senate for ratification, but the Obama administration refuses to do so, and says ACTA, which is a global treaty, can be made and signed just by the president. Something about that argument sounds very wrong to me.
- KoulMomo 14y ago
  Sen Wyden has been great on these issues. See also http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120523/11415519051/wyden-to-obama-hollywood-shouldnt-know-more-about-tpp-than-congress.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120523/11415519051/wyden-... Where the Obama administration would not share the contents of the TTP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) agreement with congress or senate, while representatives of U.S. corporations are being consulted on the agreement. Crony Capitalism at its worst.
  - snowwrestler 14y ago
    Without commenting on the TPP specifically, I will point out that this is the process that the Constitution sets out for international treaties: the executive branch negotiates them as they see fit, then the agreement is presented to the Congress for ratification. If TPP makes it that far (no guarantee it will), the Congress will have plenty of opportunity to read and react to it--especially now that Fast Track has expired. Just look at how many times the negotiators had to go back to the table on the South Korea and Colombia free trade agreements to satisfy Congressional objections.
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  ACTA could be signed in the U.S. without Senate ratification because it doesn't change a single thing in U.S. domestic IP law, so there really isn't anything for the Senate to ratify. Wyden knows this; his request is largely grandstanding. This is not necessarily true in other countries, which is why their legislators are getting involved.

dutchbrit 14y ago

As a Dutch resident (British citizen), who's working on a file sharing startup, this news really makes me happy. Hopefully other countries will follow

davedx 14y ago
Also a Brit in NL. Net neutrality and this news makes me very happy too, though I actually work (indirectly) for Hollywood!
- dutchbrit 14y ago
  Seriously? Where are you based?!

iscrewyou 14y ago

It's things like these that makes it hard for me to ignore that the U.S. is heading down the wrong path and most of its governmental arms are controlled by corporations. Let the people decide on something for once.

Kartificial 14y ago

Good news to start off the day. I hope many will follow.

SjuulJanssen 14y ago

I'm happy that privacy is still on the political agenda

jwr 14y ago

Thank you, Netherlands! (from the Polish, whose Prime Minister initially thought signing ACTA was a good idea "because everyone else did")

ktizo 14y ago
Which is a marginally better excuse than the standard 4 year old's "someone else did it and ran away", but only just.
- ajuc 14y ago
  For the record - Polish PM backed off after few weeks of mass protests in Poland, and said he was wrong, and Poland won't ratificate ACTA. I still don't like him for his other decisions, and the lies he told about ACTA before he changed his mind, but at least he can say he was wrong.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    Fair point, however I admit I am a bit of a cynical bastard and so suspect that most politicians would swear the earth was flat, if they thought for one second it would extend their time in power.
    - darkestkhan 14y ago
      That is main reason why he (Polish PM) has to be very wary now - if he didn't back down from ACTA he wouldn't stand a chance in next elections. And there is still some time before we will have them but if he makes more blunders it will be his political death.

maurits 14y ago

Two critical notes to the general "holland is fantastic" fuzzy feelings. The Netherlands are European leaders when it comes to wiretapping communications. Its laws gives the intelligence communities extensive powers to tap, filter and store. This was already the case well before 9/11. Secondly, privacy is usually not a political or social issue of any real significance.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jkn 14y ago
The Netherlands recently passed a law on Net neutrality stating that a warrant is required for internet wiretapping: https://www.bof.nl/2012/05/08/netherlands-first-country-in-europe-with-net-neutrality/ https://www.bof.nl/2012/05/08/netherlands-first-country-in-e... I don't see anything wrong with wiretapping with a warrant. Do people who argue against them also argue against home search warrants?
- joelhaasnoot 14y ago
  Little bit ironic BTW, seeing as The Netherlands has one of the highest phone wiretapping rates in the world.
  - icoder 14y ago
    True, however the phone wiretapping rates are subject of debate as well. Phone wiretapping is simply one way a country can decide on by which criminal activities should be traced. Other countries do so in different ways, and comparing them, especially in different jurisdictions is not straightforward. For civilians that do not exercise criminal activities, wiretapping will be less of an influence on their lives as ACTA or non-net-neutrality would be. On average.
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    The difficulty here is that NL has a strong oversight on wiretapping - so whereas in the UK, a single wiretap warrant can get other phone numbers on as riders (usually one cop doing a favour for another cop), which makes the UK numbers look smaller, the NL is more open and so has larger looking wiretaps.

Mordor 14y ago

The last few years have been particularly crazy - Apple's pursuit of what is essentially a black rectangle being the oddest of all. Looking forward to the next generation of laws appropriate to the growth of the internet and the people who use it...

gglanzani 14y ago

And on the other and now the majority of ISP are blocking access to the PirateBay. As much as I like the Netherlands (living here from 2006, I'm Italian), these inconsistencies in their systems are really annoying[^1]. Net neutrality, ACTA rejection on one side, blocking web sites on the other. [^1]: I won't mention the other kind of inconsistencies, but if you really curious about some health care system madness, I encourage you to readhttp://blog.lanzani.nl/2011/doctors/ http://blog.lanzani.nl/2011/doctors/

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
icoder 14y ago
Really? The ISP-PirateBay blockade was ordered by a judge based on existing legislation. The field of net neutrality, privacy, copyright/piracy is changing and complex: I don't think it is reasonable to expect full consistency now. Tell me which country is consistent, and is so democratically? At least the Dutch have set a course, and in my opinion it is a good one. [I read your blog entry, sorry to hear about your knee but otherwise I find your story single sided and your statement that doctors get money for not helping is so crude and slander-like that it needs citation, in my opinion - if it were not for the fact that I have to email you to comment on the post I would have placed this part of my reaction over there.]
- gglanzani 14y ago
  Not saying that other countries are better, just saying that there are still a lot of inconsistencies. [As for the doctors: for what regards the money, this is what I've heard. Of course there will be nothing official but: I know 2 (!) persons who died of uncured cancer, because Dutch doctors just told them to take pain killers (not kidding). Then I know other 2 (we were close) that had to go to their home countries to get the cancer cured, because here the doctors told them to wait a couple of weeks. Once home their doctors hospitalized them immediately, saying that further delays would have killed them. A PhD student from Russia, also here in the Netherlands, emailed me after reading my blog post, because the same happened to his knee and the doctor didn't want to treat him. My mother-in-law had kidney stones, and what did the doctor say? Drink some warm milk. She had to fight 3 days to be sent to the hospital. I'm here since 2006, but I already met so many people who where shocked by the incompetence of Dutch doctors, that I could write for hours. The entry in my blog reflects some facts happened directly to me or my family.]

lucb1e 14y ago

Net neutrality, a lot of ISPs counter-suing BREIN for having to block thepiratebay, and now this. I love the Netherlands ^^

Casperin 14y ago

It's a bit scary that it is news worthy that some politicians stood up for the people. Well done though :)

bgentry 14y ago

Wow, is this really what bills in the Netherlands look like? 500 words, half a page? How do we get our govt to stop churning out multi-thousand page piles of pork-barreling instead of simple, straightforward resolutions like this?

scoot 14y ago
Charge politicians by the word for submitted bills?
speleding 14y ago
Actually, it's a "motion", a (strong though non-binding) suggestion from the house to the cabinet that they should change the regulations to accommodate the motion. The actual law or laws that will be changed or created are not nearly as pretty. (Although judges here are allowed to pass judgement in the "spirit of the law" rather than taking the text literally, so there is less of an incentive to get every little detail nailed down on paper)
eru 14y ago
The US constitution isn't too verbose, either. (But you can still see the murky compromises, if you look carefully.)