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> Over half of the stock market is held in the retirement accounts of everyday people. This is just a tax in a roundabout way. I don't have a solution, they all

by tivert 2y ago

> Over half of the stock market is held in the retirement accounts of everyday people. This is just a tax in a roundabout way. I don't have a solution, they all suck. But I'm not convinced this is any better. And how many people own no stock, and how many people own the other 50%? That argument relies the same bullshit conceptual framework that's used to excuse so much capitalist dysfunction: since some of the ownership is spread very widely and very thinly. all ownership gets to dodge responsibility. It's still murder if somehow you arrange it so a million people pulled the trigger. Edit: IMHO, the 401k was a genius stroke of manipulation and propaganda. It's convinced so many people to neglect or even argue against their own core interests in the off chance their account could be worth a few bucks more.

pintxo 2y ago
> It's still murder if somehow you arrange it so a million people pulled the trigger. Lots of Countries/Government have gotten away with it, though.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Lots of Countries/Government have gotten away with it, though. Going there is a derail. And it doesn't even work because my analogy relied on the relationship between private groups/individuals and the legal system, which is quite different than the relationship between a country/government and the legal system.
  - salawat 2y ago
    The poster has a point though in that the government is the Ur-legal-fiction. What ends up being a problem with any subsequently spawned legal fictions will necessarily be an issue with Government. That being said, you're absolutely correct, and I don't think that it is on you to solve the Government level issue, and there is nothing about the Government level issue stopping us from slapping some additional constraints on legal fictions it spawns. The devil, however, is in the implementation details; many of which tend to cross increasingly hairy and controversial lines. Things like limits on freedom from compelled speech for corporations with regard to privately funded research. Revocation of trade secrets (therein tend to lay the fertile ground for corruption). Mandatory recordkeeping practices that start violating the human dignity of everyone to be free from constant scrutiny, as it is only with complete comms records that one could actually piece together the facts of what happened; which still runs into the issue of criminals gonna crime; so what you effectively do is partition your population into two groups. Those that aspire to comply, and those deadset on success even at the risk of non-compliance. These are not low-stakes social changes we're talking about here. This fundamentally refactors just about everything about our ways of life, from lowest employee to the hoghest level exec, to every small business owner.
smabie 2y ago
Something like 60% of Americans own atleast some stock
seec 2y ago
It’s not necessarily a capitalist thing. People will try to avoid any responsibility while getting the most of any system if you let them. A retirement system like we have in France where older peoples shift the pension responsibility to younger generations regardless of their efforts as parents/cohort is not better at all.

by tivert 2y ago

pintxo 2y ago

> It's still murder if somehow you arrange it so a million people pulled the trigger. Lots of Countries/Government have gotten away with it, though.

tivert 2y ago
> Lots of Countries/Government have gotten away with it, though. Going there is a derail. And it doesn't even work because my analogy relied on the relationship between private groups/individuals and the legal system, which is quite different than the relationship between a country/government and the legal system.
- salawat 2y ago
  The poster has a point though in that the government is the Ur-legal-fiction. What ends up being a problem with any subsequently spawned legal fictions will necessarily be an issue with Government. That being said, you're absolutely correct, and I don't think that it is on you to solve the Government level issue, and there is nothing about the Government level issue stopping us from slapping some additional constraints on legal fictions it spawns. The devil, however, is in the implementation details; many of which tend to cross increasingly hairy and controversial lines. Things like limits on freedom from compelled speech for corporations with regard to privately funded research. Revocation of trade secrets (therein tend to lay the fertile ground for corruption). Mandatory recordkeeping practices that start violating the human dignity of everyone to be free from constant scrutiny, as it is only with complete comms records that one could actually piece together the facts of what happened; which still runs into the issue of criminals gonna crime; so what you effectively do is partition your population into two groups. Those that aspire to comply, and those deadset on success even at the risk of non-compliance. These are not low-stakes social changes we're talking about here. This fundamentally refactors just about everything about our ways of life, from lowest employee to the hoghest level exec, to every small business owner.

smabie 2y ago

Something like 60% of Americans own atleast some stock

seec 2y ago

It’s not necessarily a capitalist thing. People will try to avoid any responsibility while getting the most of any system if you let them. A retirement system like we have in France where older peoples shift the pension responsibility to younger generations regardless of their efforts as parents/cohort is not better at all.