15 ms·

This is a hot take these days. The world seems to need to take a side on everything and most of the Palestine supporters fail to condemn Hamas and the Israel su

This is a hot take these days. The world seems to need to take a side on everything and most of the Palestine supporters fail to condemn Hamas and the Israel supporters don't tend to criticize Israel. Broadly I think Israel has the right ambition (the destruction of Hamas) but are going about it in a terrible manner and it will now backfire on them spectacularly.

jeltz 2y ago
I agree that Israel is going about it in a terrible manner but I also do not think that the destruction of Hamas is a reasonable goal. How can you do that without genocide?
- pdonis 2y ago
  Hamas is not a population, it's a terrorist organization. There is no need to kill every Palestinian in order to destroy Hamas.
  - jeltz 2y ago
    Ok, then tell me how you do it. Or how well it worked for the us to destroy the Taliban.
    - pdonis 2y ago
      > then tell me how you do it The way Israel is doing it. There is no pretty, hygienic way to fight an existential conflict, which is what this is.
      - Levitz 2y ago
        Okay, say Israel enters Rafah, do whatever they want in there. Say they do a whole another pass over Gaza. Do you think the rest of the population just stands by? You can't treat people like Israel treats Palestinians and not have terrorism. It's really that simple. Any serious plan by Israel to achieve peace of any sort with Palestinians involves massive concessions compared to the actual state of things and I can't imagine for a second anything like that would happen.
        its_ethan 2y ago
        It's almost like we're stumbling into how this is one of the trickiest geopolitical issues in the last hundred years... There's an inverse to what you're saying (which I don't disagree with) which is that if Israel does nothing in response to Hamas aggression, and just lets Hamas + it's allies keep bulling, Israeli's will die and their citizenry will be radicalized to do something in response. This has been the pattern in this region since literally day 1 of Israel being acknowledged as a country. It's two irreconcilable groups locked into a situation where neither can meaningfully (or "safely") de-escalate; a clean solution is really unlikely to emerge.
        Levitz 2y ago
        But you have to acknowledge, if these actions are not actually going to fix the problem, then they are actually psychopathic in nature. The "Well I have to do SOMETHING" rationale works when the "something" doesn't involve killing tens of thousands. Also, it's not like the other option is "doing nothing", but acknowledging that a way must be found to return to the pre-2005 state of things. There must be a Palestinian governance with a degree of sovereignty and the settlements have to be removed. These are evident steps towards deradicalization but steps that the Israeli right in general is not keen on, in fact they would rather do the complete opposite.
        its_ethan 2y ago
        What they "have to do SOMETHING" about is deal with a threat that aims to kill tens of thousands (more if hamas had their way) of their own, so I don't think you can just say that doesn't apply here. It would be nice if one side could break the cycle of responding to violence with more violence, but that seems unlikely to happen, especially when one side is essentially defined by their intent of violence towards the other. Israel backing out (removing settlements) and allowing for Palestine self governance isn't going to magically make hamas be nice. Israel would only agree to that kind of measure if they got to maintain some amount of influence over the region so that they could have some reasonable confidence that they can at least assess active threats against them. And suddenly we're back to 2005 Israeli disengagement, where they did withdraw their settlements in gaza and reduced their physical presence instead opting for trying to influence "remotely" while allowing Palestine to self-assemble it's governance. Turns out doing that is actually really hard, hamas took over anyway, and it landed everyone in the current mess. Suggesting that they just do it again but trust me bro this time it'll work, or suggesting that what they really need to do is also relinquish any influence they have over the region is just not an idea that is going to make it off the ground. Some compromise related to it is probably what will happen, and we can all set our watches for the next iteration. Again, it's almost like we're stumbling into how this is one of the trickiest geopolitical issues in the last hundred years
  - golergka 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 2y ago
      > The vast majority of Palestinians wish all the Israelis dead, and are happy to kill That crosses into the sort of slur we don't allow here, regardless of which group is being spoken of. Please don't post like this to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - golergka 2y ago
        That's a fact that's backed up by multiple polls and occurrences of what I describe. I didn't use any slurs. Can you please explain what is wrong with this so I can follow the rules better in the future? Thanks.
        dang 2y ago
        On Hacker News, please don't make hostile, dehumanizing generalizations about entire populations.
- exe34 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - rusk 2y ago
    Doctors and Nurses don’t carry guns?
    - exe34 2y ago
      is this a question? I'm not sure what you're trying to ask.
      - rusk 2y ago
        Well presumably they don’t wear your uniform
        exe34 2y ago
        [flagged]
        rusk 2y ago
        No. Or a gun.
        exe34 2y ago
        that's very enlightening, thank you for your contribution. it has changed how I see things.
        rusk 2y ago
        I don't expect anything would change how you see things. Once you're justifying the murder of civilians including children aid workers and medics, you're too far gone. Best I can hope for is a laugh at your expense.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  Many governments have been defeated in war without genocides.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
Refusing to take a side is not a position of moral strength or authority. You should be a partisan against genocide.
- exe34 2y ago
  that's right! Hamas broke the ceasefire on October 7th, and if the Israelis laid down their weapons, they would be slaughtered. they can't afford to leave Hamas in charge. they don't want control of gaza, but it doesn't seem like there's any alternative to military occupation if they want to stop the incursions for good.
- ipaddr 2y ago
  Supporters of Hamas are calling for a genocide and doing everything they can to get one. But then they say the other side is doing that.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - worik 2y ago
    > We should more be partisans against religious lunatics On both sides?
    - blackhawkC17 2y ago
      No, on one side, the Islamic Resistance Movement (Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya). Hamas for short.
      - harimau777 2y ago
        Why wouldn't we also oppose people using religion to justify oppressing Palestinians?
        2y ago
pdonis 2y ago
> are going about it in a terrible manner How could Israel defend itself against Hamas in a manner that wasn't "terrible"? What non-terrible options do they have?
- octopoc 2y ago
  I mean they're all terrible at this point, but Israel has been digging this hole for a while, it's not going to be easy to get out. Doesn't mean it's not worth trying to stop digging.
  - pdonis 2y ago
    > Israel has been digging this hole for a while No, Israel has been trying to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization which has explicitly declared that its objective is to destroy Israel. What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? There is no stable middle ground here. That's what much of the commentary on this situation seems to be missing. This is an existential conflict between Israel and Hamas (note that I said "Hamas", not "the Palestinians"--they're not the same): the only stable endpoint is that one or the other ceases to exist. And Hamas is the side that chose to make it that way. So I'm really struggling to see what possible options Israel has other than what they are doing.
    - harimau777 2y ago
      > What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? They could form a state with equal rights, including right of return, for Jews and Palestinians.
      - mupuff1234 2y ago
        That would be the end of Israel as a functioning state (Jewish or not) You really think a country can double it's population overnight bringing even more division without it crumbling? You'll just end up with another Lebanon. A two state solution is the only thing that can make sense short/medium term. Longer term after decades of peace you can open the borders and create perhaps a union of sort. A one state solution is detached - it's just not a viable option, and even if you believe it's the right thing to do it just doesn't seem wise.
mordae 2y ago
The trouble is that Israel government does not really have the ambition to destroy Hamas. Their ambition under ultra conservative lobby is to grab more Palestinian land, using inevitable backlash as an excuse to dismiss any complaints. If the whole world stepped in, captured every Hamas militant and left, it wouldn't take more than a couple of years and somebody else would take up the arms against the Israeli occupants. We'd have to do that AND then protect the Palestinians from militant Zionists for half a century at least to actually have any chance to solve the situation. And since EU doesn't give a shit, US is unable to stand up to antidefamation league, rest of the Islamic countries enjoys blaming Israel but don't actually do anything, Palestinians are good as dead.
feedforward 2y ago
> Broadly I think Israel has the right ambition (the destruction of Hamas) Well a few months ago Netanyahu sent the head of the Mossad to Qatar asking them to fund Hamas ( https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... ). So these endless massacres of Palestinian civilians by Israel (and effectively by the USA too) are happening for a pretty capricious reason, if that even is the reason, and I think it isn't.

jeltz 2y ago

I agree that Israel is going about it in a terrible manner but I also do not think that the destruction of Hamas is a reasonable goal. How can you do that without genocide?

pdonis 2y ago
Hamas is not a population, it's a terrorist organization. There is no need to kill every Palestinian in order to destroy Hamas.
- jeltz 2y ago
  Ok, then tell me how you do it. Or how well it worked for the us to destroy the Taliban.
  - pdonis 2y ago
    > then tell me how you do it The way Israel is doing it. There is no pretty, hygienic way to fight an existential conflict, which is what this is.
    - Levitz 2y ago
      Okay, say Israel enters Rafah, do whatever they want in there. Say they do a whole another pass over Gaza. Do you think the rest of the population just stands by? You can't treat people like Israel treats Palestinians and not have terrorism. It's really that simple. Any serious plan by Israel to achieve peace of any sort with Palestinians involves massive concessions compared to the actual state of things and I can't imagine for a second anything like that would happen.
      - its_ethan 2y ago
        It's almost like we're stumbling into how this is one of the trickiest geopolitical issues in the last hundred years... There's an inverse to what you're saying (which I don't disagree with) which is that if Israel does nothing in response to Hamas aggression, and just lets Hamas + it's allies keep bulling, Israeli's will die and their citizenry will be radicalized to do something in response. This has been the pattern in this region since literally day 1 of Israel being acknowledged as a country. It's two irreconcilable groups locked into a situation where neither can meaningfully (or "safely") de-escalate; a clean solution is really unlikely to emerge.
        Levitz 2y ago
        But you have to acknowledge, if these actions are not actually going to fix the problem, then they are actually psychopathic in nature. The "Well I have to do SOMETHING" rationale works when the "something" doesn't involve killing tens of thousands. Also, it's not like the other option is "doing nothing", but acknowledging that a way must be found to return to the pre-2005 state of things. There must be a Palestinian governance with a degree of sovereignty and the settlements have to be removed. These are evident steps towards deradicalization but steps that the Israeli right in general is not keen on, in fact they would rather do the complete opposite.
        its_ethan 2y ago
        What they "have to do SOMETHING" about is deal with a threat that aims to kill tens of thousands (more if hamas had their way) of their own, so I don't think you can just say that doesn't apply here. It would be nice if one side could break the cycle of responding to violence with more violence, but that seems unlikely to happen, especially when one side is essentially defined by their intent of violence towards the other. Israel backing out (removing settlements) and allowing for Palestine self governance isn't going to magically make hamas be nice. Israel would only agree to that kind of measure if they got to maintain some amount of influence over the region so that they could have some reasonable confidence that they can at least assess active threats against them. And suddenly we're back to 2005 Israeli disengagement, where they did withdraw their settlements in gaza and reduced their physical presence instead opting for trying to influence "remotely" while allowing Palestine to self-assemble it's governance. Turns out doing that is actually really hard, hamas took over anyway, and it landed everyone in the current mess. Suggesting that they just do it again but trust me bro this time it'll work, or suggesting that what they really need to do is also relinquish any influence they have over the region is just not an idea that is going to make it off the ground. Some compromise related to it is probably what will happen, and we can all set our watches for the next iteration. Again, it's almost like we're stumbling into how this is one of the trickiest geopolitical issues in the last hundred years
- golergka 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 2y ago
    > The vast majority of Palestinians wish all the Israelis dead, and are happy to kill That crosses into the sort of slur we don't allow here, regardless of which group is being spoken of. Please don't post like this to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - golergka 2y ago
      That's a fact that's backed up by multiple polls and occurrences of what I describe. I didn't use any slurs. Can you please explain what is wrong with this so I can follow the rules better in the future? Thanks.
      - dang 2y ago
        On Hacker News, please don't make hostile, dehumanizing generalizations about entire populations.
exe34 2y ago
[flagged]
- rusk 2y ago
  Doctors and Nurses don’t carry guns?
  - exe34 2y ago
    is this a question? I'm not sure what you're trying to ask.
    - rusk 2y ago
      Well presumably they don’t wear your uniform
      - exe34 2y ago
        [flagged]
        rusk 2y ago
        No. Or a gun.
        exe34 2y ago
        that's very enlightening, thank you for your contribution. it has changed how I see things.
        rusk 2y ago
        I don't expect anything would change how you see things. Once you're justifying the murder of civilians including children aid workers and medics, you're too far gone. Best I can hope for is a laugh at your expense.
BurningFrog 2y ago
Many governments have been defeated in war without genocides.

giraffe_lady 2y ago

Refusing to take a side is not a position of moral strength or authority. You should be a partisan against genocide.

exe34 2y ago
that's right! Hamas broke the ceasefire on October 7th, and if the Israelis laid down their weapons, they would be slaughtered. they can't afford to leave Hamas in charge. they don't want control of gaza, but it doesn't seem like there's any alternative to military occupation if they want to stop the incursions for good.
ipaddr 2y ago
Supporters of Hamas are calling for a genocide and doing everything they can to get one. But then they say the other side is doing that.
blackhawkC17 2y ago
[flagged]
- worik 2y ago
  > We should more be partisans against religious lunatics On both sides?
  - blackhawkC17 2y ago
    No, on one side, the Islamic Resistance Movement (Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya). Hamas for short.
    - harimau777 2y ago
      Why wouldn't we also oppose people using religion to justify oppressing Palestinians?
      - 2y ago

pdonis 2y ago

> are going about it in a terrible manner How could Israel defend itself against Hamas in a manner that wasn't "terrible"? What non-terrible options do they have?

octopoc 2y ago
I mean they're all terrible at this point, but Israel has been digging this hole for a while, it's not going to be easy to get out. Doesn't mean it's not worth trying to stop digging.
- pdonis 2y ago
  > Israel has been digging this hole for a while No, Israel has been trying to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization which has explicitly declared that its objective is to destroy Israel. What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? There is no stable middle ground here. That's what much of the commentary on this situation seems to be missing. This is an existential conflict between Israel and Hamas (note that I said "Hamas", not "the Palestinians"--they're not the same): the only stable endpoint is that one or the other ceases to exist. And Hamas is the side that chose to make it that way. So I'm really struggling to see what possible options Israel has other than what they are doing.
  - harimau777 2y ago
    > What options does it have to do that that would meet with your approval, or even grudging acquiescence? They could form a state with equal rights, including right of return, for Jews and Palestinians.
    - mupuff1234 2y ago
      That would be the end of Israel as a functioning state (Jewish or not) You really think a country can double it's population overnight bringing even more division without it crumbling? You'll just end up with another Lebanon. A two state solution is the only thing that can make sense short/medium term. Longer term after decades of peace you can open the borders and create perhaps a union of sort. A one state solution is detached - it's just not a viable option, and even if you believe it's the right thing to do it just doesn't seem wise.

mordae 2y ago

The trouble is that Israel government does not really have the ambition to destroy Hamas. Their ambition under ultra conservative lobby is to grab more Palestinian land, using inevitable backlash as an excuse to dismiss any complaints. If the whole world stepped in, captured every Hamas militant and left, it wouldn't take more than a couple of years and somebody else would take up the arms against the Israeli occupants. We'd have to do that AND then protect the Palestinians from militant Zionists for half a century at least to actually have any chance to solve the situation. And since EU doesn't give a shit, US is unable to stand up to antidefamation league, rest of the Islamic countries enjoys blaming Israel but don't actually do anything, Palestinians are good as dead.

feedforward 2y ago

> Broadly I think Israel has the right ambition (the destruction of Hamas) Well a few months ago Netanyahu sent the head of the Mossad to Qatar asking them to fund Hamas ( https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... ). So these endless massacres of Palestinian civilians by Israel (and effectively by the USA too) are happening for a pretty capricious reason, if that even is the reason, and I think it isn't.