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You're hiring because you've got a bit more work than you have people for. You're probably under a bit of stress, timelines are a bit tight. Do you want someon

You're hiring because you've got a bit more work than you have people for. You're probably under a bit of stress, timelines are a bit tight. Do you want someone who has strong evidence of job-hopping, and believe they will commit more time than average to your environment, on the basis that the job hopping is due to high performance? Or do you want someone who's going to stick around a bit longer, on the basis that much of the value of someone in a job is actually domain knowledge specific to the business and the code, rather than transferrable skills? When I see a lot of job hopping on a CV, I tend not to take a chance. Those folks haven't shown evidence of investing in non-transferrable knowledge and processes. They might have high performance transferrable skills, but chances are they'll want to change how things are done, then not stick around to see them all the way through.

lovich 2y ago
I manage a team and hire people so I have an incentive to look for people who don’t job hop and have conversations with peers on candidates around this. I find that I can’t bring myself to care too much to evaluate people on if they are “job hoppers”. Every place I’ve worked at that wants to avoid it based on what I am told by my leaders and HR, also doesn’t give raises even keeping up with inflation unless you manage to get promoted. And they usually have a million reasons to not promote someone come yearly reviews. This industry incentivize job hopping and you’re better off treating employees as a stream and figuring out how to manage project estimates and knowledge transfer around that. Obviously doesn’t apply if your company really puts in effort to maintain employees long term, but you’re in an exceptional case if that is true
- worble 2y ago
  >This industry incentivize job hopping and you’re better off treating employees as a stream and figuring out how to manage project estimates and knowledge transfer around that Yup, it's totally this. I think on average I've moved every 2 years or so (some longer, some shorter), but every time I've done so I've taken the offer back to my current company and gone "Look, I don't want to move jobs, that's a hassle, if you matched the offer (or even just came close enough) I'd stay" and never, not a single time, has a company ever done that. At the end of the day, I've gotta look out for myself.
  - barrkel 2y ago
    I've seen people with like 10 jobs in 8 years.
lmeyerov 2y ago
Yep, I very occasionally see natural '10x' types who can jump into any codebase or business.... and more often see '10x' types who learn the environment more slowly but then speedrun using their other skills once they are situated. Latter bet is safer, a lot of the bigger fun is year 2, 3. For job hoppers, I often see folks who don't realize they are leaving behind landmines for their colleagues. They haven't had as much of a chance to learn from their mistakes. They learn from inheriting, but often not at a 'senior' level of decision making. So we hire fewer and slower, and work to maintain a team that values doing well at their craft and building ambitious things that take time.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > folks who don't realize they are leaving behind landmines for their colleagues Yes - people who never live with the outcomes of their own work / decisions are less likely to have learned good longer-term practices.
sneed_chucker 2y ago
It entirely depends on the trajectory of the hopping. For example, a year at local company, then two years at a fortune 500, then hopping to FAANG or FAANG-adjancent company could be a positive sign. Seniority of the candidate is another thing to consider. Job hopping every 1.5 to 2 years in the first 5 or so years of one's career is normal and often expected among US software engineers. However, having a bunch of short stints later in one's career, in my experience, has translated to weaker hires.
- mingus88 2y ago
  Short stints later in one’s career can simply mean that person has the experience to quickly identify a dead end role and the network and resume to easily jump to something better. I understand this can look like a “weaker hire” to an employer but as an older engineer in this industry, my radar for BS is keen and I don’t want to waste my time at a place where I know I won’t have an impact.
  - sneed_chucker 2y ago
    For sure, I've seen people like that. I've also seen the 50 year old eternal junior engineer who seems to scrape by from employer to employer by way of momentum and "years of experience" alone.
no_wizard 2y ago
>Or do you want someone who's going to stick around a bit longer, on the basis that much of the value of someone in a job is actually domain knowledge specific to the business and the code, rather than transferrable skills? Do the incentive structures at your company match this? If they do, thats great, but I've worked at places who don't even give raises that beat inflation and still wonder why people leave within 1-3 years. Typically what I've seen of job hopping, is more often than not their previous employer simply didn't have a proper incentive structure to keep a good engineer around very long. Alot of people leave when they realize they'll never get more than a 3-4% raise, for example. If you desire employees to stay around for awhile and really learn the product and business deeply, it needs to be incentivized properly
- barfbagginus 2y ago
  They're saying they're one of those employers who would balk at a 10% raise. So they don't take a chance on employees that will have standards.... They'll all leave the business in the lurch when they realize nothing is going to improve. Instead, they recruit wet blankets that will take one for the team with 3-4% raises, for 3 to 4 years or more. If indentured servitude contracts were still legal, they would be a fan.
anon291 2y ago
As a job hopper that's done well for myself; Realistically, I don't want a job with that much stress. If timelines are tight, it's usually management's fault (and I can say this... I've been in management in many positions). In my experience, they don't compensate you for it at all, and you can easily (at least for me) find a job that pays more with less stress. Take that as you will. I've also been in the hiring manager role and have no problem with job hoppers. I find them to generally be more ambitious.
- banish-m4 2y ago
  There is no reward for suffering or misery. It usually includes some level of unreasonableness. Sustainable environments seek a pace conducive to life rather than absurd crash schedules, drama, churn, and burgeoning tech debt.
banish-m4 2y ago
Rockstar ninja Not Invented by Me syndrome. Implements new tech stack, uses obscure technologies, or redoes things in nonstandard ways (usually with lots of patches and hacks but without documentation) to create a platform only they can maintain but then move on and sticks everyone else with the "check" of support and extensibility.

lovich 2y ago

I manage a team and hire people so I have an incentive to look for people who don’t job hop and have conversations with peers on candidates around this. I find that I can’t bring myself to care too much to evaluate people on if they are “job hoppers”. Every place I’ve worked at that wants to avoid it based on what I am told by my leaders and HR, also doesn’t give raises even keeping up with inflation unless you manage to get promoted. And they usually have a million reasons to not promote someone come yearly reviews. This industry incentivize job hopping and you’re better off treating employees as a stream and figuring out how to manage project estimates and knowledge transfer around that. Obviously doesn’t apply if your company really puts in effort to maintain employees long term, but you’re in an exceptional case if that is true

worble 2y ago
>This industry incentivize job hopping and you’re better off treating employees as a stream and figuring out how to manage project estimates and knowledge transfer around that Yup, it's totally this. I think on average I've moved every 2 years or so (some longer, some shorter), but every time I've done so I've taken the offer back to my current company and gone "Look, I don't want to move jobs, that's a hassle, if you matched the offer (or even just came close enough) I'd stay" and never, not a single time, has a company ever done that. At the end of the day, I've gotta look out for myself.
- barrkel 2y ago
  I've seen people with like 10 jobs in 8 years.

lmeyerov 2y ago

Yep, I very occasionally see natural '10x' types who can jump into any codebase or business.... and more often see '10x' types who learn the environment more slowly but then speedrun using their other skills once they are situated. Latter bet is safer, a lot of the bigger fun is year 2, 3. For job hoppers, I often see folks who don't realize they are leaving behind landmines for their colleagues. They haven't had as much of a chance to learn from their mistakes. They learn from inheriting, but often not at a 'senior' level of decision making. So we hire fewer and slower, and work to maintain a team that values doing well at their craft and building ambitious things that take time.

robertlagrant 2y ago
> folks who don't realize they are leaving behind landmines for their colleagues Yes - people who never live with the outcomes of their own work / decisions are less likely to have learned good longer-term practices.

sneed_chucker 2y ago

It entirely depends on the trajectory of the hopping. For example, a year at local company, then two years at a fortune 500, then hopping to FAANG or FAANG-adjancent company could be a positive sign. Seniority of the candidate is another thing to consider. Job hopping every 1.5 to 2 years in the first 5 or so years of one's career is normal and often expected among US software engineers. However, having a bunch of short stints later in one's career, in my experience, has translated to weaker hires.

mingus88 2y ago
Short stints later in one’s career can simply mean that person has the experience to quickly identify a dead end role and the network and resume to easily jump to something better. I understand this can look like a “weaker hire” to an employer but as an older engineer in this industry, my radar for BS is keen and I don’t want to waste my time at a place where I know I won’t have an impact.
- sneed_chucker 2y ago
  For sure, I've seen people like that. I've also seen the 50 year old eternal junior engineer who seems to scrape by from employer to employer by way of momentum and "years of experience" alone.

no_wizard 2y ago

>Or do you want someone who's going to stick around a bit longer, on the basis that much of the value of someone in a job is actually domain knowledge specific to the business and the code, rather than transferrable skills? Do the incentive structures at your company match this? If they do, thats great, but I've worked at places who don't even give raises that beat inflation and still wonder why people leave within 1-3 years. Typically what I've seen of job hopping, is more often than not their previous employer simply didn't have a proper incentive structure to keep a good engineer around very long. Alot of people leave when they realize they'll never get more than a 3-4% raise, for example. If you desire employees to stay around for awhile and really learn the product and business deeply, it needs to be incentivized properly

barfbagginus 2y ago
They're saying they're one of those employers who would balk at a 10% raise. So they don't take a chance on employees that will have standards.... They'll all leave the business in the lurch when they realize nothing is going to improve. Instead, they recruit wet blankets that will take one for the team with 3-4% raises, for 3 to 4 years or more. If indentured servitude contracts were still legal, they would be a fan.

anon291 2y ago

As a job hopper that's done well for myself; Realistically, I don't want a job with that much stress. If timelines are tight, it's usually management's fault (and I can say this... I've been in management in many positions). In my experience, they don't compensate you for it at all, and you can easily (at least for me) find a job that pays more with less stress. Take that as you will. I've also been in the hiring manager role and have no problem with job hoppers. I find them to generally be more ambitious.

banish-m4 2y ago
There is no reward for suffering or misery. It usually includes some level of unreasonableness. Sustainable environments seek a pace conducive to life rather than absurd crash schedules, drama, churn, and burgeoning tech debt.

banish-m4 2y ago

Rockstar ninja Not Invented by Me syndrome. Implements new tech stack, uses obscure technologies, or redoes things in nonstandard ways (usually with lots of patches and hacks but without documentation) to create a platform only they can maintain but then move on and sticks everyone else with the "check" of support and extensibility.