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Mere existence of arrest warrants for war crimes against a serving Israeli prime minister has great symbolic value. This will have big impact on media discourse

Mere existence of arrest warrants for war crimes against a serving Israeli prime minister has great symbolic value. This will have big impact on media discourse not controlled by the Israeli lobby. Also, one does not have to choose sides. We can condemn both sides as barbaric.

bhaney 2y ago
> We can condemn both sides as barbaric I agree entirely but I'm not really trying to make any political statement here. I'm purely interested in the mechanical aspect of how this court works and how it can manage to accomplish anything in this situation. It seems to me that this story isn't much worth following, because nothing of consequence will happen if these warrants end up being served.
- jeltz 2y ago
  It makes the people with arrest warrants much less welcome to visit other countries. While they still may not actually arrest a leader of state many countries would say no to a visit to not risk a media scandal by having an accused war criminal visit.
  - bhaney 2y ago
    > It makes the people with arrest warrants much less welcome to visit other countries Yeah, that's fair. I guess I'm just kind of unimpressed that that's the worst punishment something called the "International Criminal Court" can inflict on leaders that they've judged to be war criminals.
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      Since this is an actual court, I’d say it’s important to differentiate between “has judged as being war criminals” and “has charged with being war criminals”. There are hopefully more penalties for someone who has been tried and found guilty.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      I don't understand what you are looking for. There is no unified world government. There is no sovereign entity that controls all nations. That means any and all international interaction is roughly consensual. If the US genocides a significant portion of their own populace, and nobody could muster up an army large enough to physically stop them, and nobody could blockade their trade enough to hurt them, then why would the US stop? Accountability requires someone to execute the "punishment" or whatever. If you want international accountability, you REQUIRE an independent entity which all nations treat as a global government, one which as the ability to militarily slap anyone who doesn't fall in line. The UN isn't that, on purpose. First problem: Where is the office for that world government? There is largely no land that is "outside" other countries. The US literally experienced this "How do you get fiefdoms to cede their power to a common government" problem in 1787, and overcoming it took promising slave owners that they wouldn't outlaw slavery for at least 20 years, and hand out a massive power structure benefit to the states that had significant slavery. Of course the invention of the cotton gin just a few years later would destroy that possible outcome and set us on the path for the civil war. If you invent a world government that could punish a country that was unruly, how do you convince the US or China to submit to it ENTIRELY? How do yo prevent this world government from simply being a tool of the US or China?
- ysofunny 2y ago
  you're trying to use mechanical thinking on a level where symbols are often more powerful than mechanisms
scarby2 2y ago
This is a hot take these days. The world seems to need to take a side on everything and most of the Palestine supporters fail to condemn Hamas and the Israel supporters don't tend to criticize Israel. Broadly I think Israel has the right ambition (the destruction of Hamas) but are going about it in a terrible manner and it will now backfire on them spectacularly.
- jeltz 2y ago
  I agree that Israel is going about it in a terrible manner but I also do not think that the destruction of Hamas is a reasonable goal. How can you do that without genocide?
  - pdonis 2y ago
    Hamas is not a population, it's a terrorist organization. There is no need to kill every Palestinian in order to destroy Hamas.
    - jeltz 2y ago
      Ok, then tell me how you do it. Or how well it worked for the us to destroy the Taliban.
      - pdonis 2y ago
        > then tell me how you do it The way Israel is doing it. There is no pretty, hygienic way to fight an existential conflict, which is what this is.
        Levitz 2y ago
        Okay, say Israel enters Rafah, do whatever they want in there. Say they do a whole another pass over Gaza. Do you think the rest of the population just stands by? You can't treat people like Israel treats Palestinians and not have terrorism. It's really that simple. Any serious plan by Israel to achieve peace of any sort with Palestinians involves massive concessions compared to the actual state of things and I can't imagine for a second anything like that would happen.
excalibur 2y ago
> This will have big impact on media discourse not controlled by the Israeli lobby. It already has. Biden was quick to condemn it and further alienate his base: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/20/international-criminal-court-arrest-warrant-netanyahu/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/20/internatio...

bhaney 2y ago

> We can condemn both sides as barbaric I agree entirely but I'm not really trying to make any political statement here. I'm purely interested in the mechanical aspect of how this court works and how it can manage to accomplish anything in this situation. It seems to me that this story isn't much worth following, because nothing of consequence will happen if these warrants end up being served.

jeltz 2y ago
It makes the people with arrest warrants much less welcome to visit other countries. While they still may not actually arrest a leader of state many countries would say no to a visit to not risk a media scandal by having an accused war criminal visit.
- bhaney 2y ago
  > It makes the people with arrest warrants much less welcome to visit other countries Yeah, that's fair. I guess I'm just kind of unimpressed that that's the worst punishment something called the "International Criminal Court" can inflict on leaders that they've judged to be war criminals.
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    Since this is an actual court, I’d say it’s important to differentiate between “has judged as being war criminals” and “has charged with being war criminals”. There are hopefully more penalties for someone who has been tried and found guilty.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    I don't understand what you are looking for. There is no unified world government. There is no sovereign entity that controls all nations. That means any and all international interaction is roughly consensual. If the US genocides a significant portion of their own populace, and nobody could muster up an army large enough to physically stop them, and nobody could blockade their trade enough to hurt them, then why would the US stop? Accountability requires someone to execute the "punishment" or whatever. If you want international accountability, you REQUIRE an independent entity which all nations treat as a global government, one which as the ability to militarily slap anyone who doesn't fall in line. The UN isn't that, on purpose. First problem: Where is the office for that world government? There is largely no land that is "outside" other countries. The US literally experienced this "How do you get fiefdoms to cede their power to a common government" problem in 1787, and overcoming it took promising slave owners that they wouldn't outlaw slavery for at least 20 years, and hand out a massive power structure benefit to the states that had significant slavery. Of course the invention of the cotton gin just a few years later would destroy that possible outcome and set us on the path for the civil war. If you invent a world government that could punish a country that was unruly, how do you convince the US or China to submit to it ENTIRELY? How do yo prevent this world government from simply being a tool of the US or China?
ysofunny 2y ago
you're trying to use mechanical thinking on a level where symbols are often more powerful than mechanisms

scarby2 2y ago

This is a hot take these days. The world seems to need to take a side on everything and most of the Palestine supporters fail to condemn Hamas and the Israel supporters don't tend to criticize Israel. Broadly I think Israel has the right ambition (the destruction of Hamas) but are going about it in a terrible manner and it will now backfire on them spectacularly.

jeltz 2y ago
I agree that Israel is going about it in a terrible manner but I also do not think that the destruction of Hamas is a reasonable goal. How can you do that without genocide?
- pdonis 2y ago
  Hamas is not a population, it's a terrorist organization. There is no need to kill every Palestinian in order to destroy Hamas.
  - jeltz 2y ago
    Ok, then tell me how you do it. Or how well it worked for the us to destroy the Taliban.
    - pdonis 2y ago
      > then tell me how you do it The way Israel is doing it. There is no pretty, hygienic way to fight an existential conflict, which is what this is.
      - Levitz 2y ago
        Okay, say Israel enters Rafah, do whatever they want in there. Say they do a whole another pass over Gaza. Do you think the rest of the population just stands by? You can't treat people like Israel treats Palestinians and not have terrorism. It's really that simple. Any serious plan by Israel to achieve peace of any sort with Palestinians involves massive concessions compared to the actual state of things and I can't imagine for a second anything like that would happen.

excalibur 2y ago

> This will have big impact on media discourse not controlled by the Israeli lobby. It already has. Biden was quick to condemn it and further alienate his base: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/20/international-criminal-court-arrest-warrant-netanyahu/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/20/internatio...