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I feel like Swift is a big miss from Google/Microsoft. If they supported Swift on their systems (properly supported), they would immediately open up their platf

I feel like Swift is a big miss from Google/Microsoft. If they supported Swift on their systems (properly supported), they would immediately open up their platforms to lots of Swift developers, and I think the benefit would be more than they would need to invest into supporting Swift.

stakhanov 2y ago
Swift developers are not that many. It's less than 5% of respondents to the Stack Overflow developer survey [1]. Microsoft and Google each have languages/ecosystems with larger developer share (Google at over 6% for Dart, and Microsoft at over 27% for C#). [1] https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#technology-most-popular-technologies https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#technology-most-popula...
- airstrike 2y ago
  less than 5% vs. over 6% is not that big of a difference
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- Rimtariro 2y ago
  It's not a zero-sum game, they don't have to reduce support for other languages. It would be a completely new source of developers for these platforms. Better 1% than 0%, and I would say that effort for that would not outweigh the possible benefits and income from new devs/apps.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    It's not Microsoft and Google's job to write Apple's software for them. It's like complaining that Apple doesn't write a good Dotnet runtime; of course they don't. It's not their job, and they don't want to anyways. > It would be a completely new source of developers for these platforms. I have no idea who you're referring to here. Who are the developers that are locked-in to iOS/MacOS but would consider ChromeOS or Windows if it supported Swift better? I cannot think of a single person I know that fills that bill. If anything it's the other way around, where people end up switching away because they don't have any use for Swift/AppleScript.
- binkHN 2y ago
  Kotlin is at 9% and Java developers, at 30% here, could easily switch over.
- briandear 2y ago
  Is that survey actually scientific? I have been doing Ruby and Swift for years and never completed that survey. That survey is of reasonably active users to Stack Overflow — there is a selection bias. There isn’t a lot of great Swift content on SO, so that’s going to attract fewer developers to answer the survey.
surajrmal 2y ago
Apple not supporting kotlin/java/c# is a big miss by that logic. Those languages are far larger in market share than swift.
- Rimtariro 2y ago
  Those languages are already well supported on Apple platforms from the language makers themselves, there is not much Apple can do to "support them" better. Opposite is not true though, there are lots of troubles you have to go through to have Swift on Android/Windows. Very often, especially in startups, when the new app is created, it is first created for iOS and then for Android. Having proper Swift support would reduce effort for bringing apps to Android/Windows.
  - charles_f 2y ago
    So how's that not a big miss from Apple to support Swift on other platforms and open themselves to have more developers supporting theirs?
    - hu3 2y ago
      Somehow it's never Apple's fault. Apple doesn't really care about Swift outside their wallet garden. How dare other companies refrain from investing in such a wonderful creation!
      - Rimtariro 2y ago
        It's not about Apple. Google/MS would invest for their own sake, so that it would translate into more apps (earlier, not as a second class citizen) on their platform, which in the end would bring money as well.
        hu3 2y ago
        The math is not that simple. Investing in Swift would to an extent canibalize Go, Dart/Flutter, TypeScript, C#. You know, the technologies which have creators that actually care and invest billions in cross-platform development. Not to mention fragmentation. Apple doesn't even care about Linux running in their own hardware. Their contribution towards that goal ranges from hostile to scraps, depending on who you ask.
afavour 2y ago
There are very few “Swift developers” out there. Much more common are “iOS developers who write in Swift”. I wouldn’t assume that any iOS engineer would be jumping all over the opportunity to make Android or Windows apps just because they can do it with Swift. They have their (typically pretty lucrative!) niche and are happy living in it.
- Rimtariro 2y ago
  They don't have to jump though, many iOS developers also do watchOS/macOS apps but they are still "iOS developers". If they can bring one more platform under their belt with little effort, I would say that many of them would consider it.
  - callalex 2y ago
    watch/mac/iOS are all the same platform just with a different window manager.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Not really, but it is easier to think that way.
      - callalex 2y ago
        At this point how do they differ?
        jwells89 2y ago
        Different toolkits and interaction models. AppKit is still dominant on macOS (despite the addition of Catalyst), UIKit is the chief framework on iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/visionOS, SwiftUI is native on watchOS and mostly wraps AppKit/UIKit on the other platforms. macOS is oriented around KB+mouse usage, iOS/iPadOS/watchOS are touch-dominant, tvOS is made to be remote-friendly, and visionOS is oriented around eye navigation and hand gestures.
        2y ago
steve1977 2y ago
In order to properly support it, Microsoft and Google would need to have a level of control over the language that Apple will never yield to them.

stakhanov 2y ago

Swift developers are not that many. It's less than 5% of respondents to the Stack Overflow developer survey [1]. Microsoft and Google each have languages/ecosystems with larger developer share (Google at over 6% for Dart, and Microsoft at over 27% for C#). [1] https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#technology-most-popular-technologies https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#technology-most-popula...

airstrike 2y ago
less than 5% vs. over 6% is not that big of a difference
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Rimtariro 2y ago
It's not a zero-sum game, they don't have to reduce support for other languages. It would be a completely new source of developers for these platforms. Better 1% than 0%, and I would say that effort for that would not outweigh the possible benefits and income from new devs/apps.
- talldayo 2y ago
  It's not Microsoft and Google's job to write Apple's software for them. It's like complaining that Apple doesn't write a good Dotnet runtime; of course they don't. It's not their job, and they don't want to anyways. > It would be a completely new source of developers for these platforms. I have no idea who you're referring to here. Who are the developers that are locked-in to iOS/MacOS but would consider ChromeOS or Windows if it supported Swift better? I cannot think of a single person I know that fills that bill. If anything it's the other way around, where people end up switching away because they don't have any use for Swift/AppleScript.
binkHN 2y ago
Kotlin is at 9% and Java developers, at 30% here, could easily switch over.
briandear 2y ago
Is that survey actually scientific? I have been doing Ruby and Swift for years and never completed that survey. That survey is of reasonably active users to Stack Overflow — there is a selection bias. There isn’t a lot of great Swift content on SO, so that’s going to attract fewer developers to answer the survey.

surajrmal 2y ago

Apple not supporting kotlin/java/c# is a big miss by that logic. Those languages are far larger in market share than swift.

Rimtariro 2y ago
Those languages are already well supported on Apple platforms from the language makers themselves, there is not much Apple can do to "support them" better. Opposite is not true though, there are lots of troubles you have to go through to have Swift on Android/Windows. Very often, especially in startups, when the new app is created, it is first created for iOS and then for Android. Having proper Swift support would reduce effort for bringing apps to Android/Windows.
- charles_f 2y ago
  So how's that not a big miss from Apple to support Swift on other platforms and open themselves to have more developers supporting theirs?
  - hu3 2y ago
    Somehow it's never Apple's fault. Apple doesn't really care about Swift outside their wallet garden. How dare other companies refrain from investing in such a wonderful creation!
    - Rimtariro 2y ago
      It's not about Apple. Google/MS would invest for their own sake, so that it would translate into more apps (earlier, not as a second class citizen) on their platform, which in the end would bring money as well.
      - hu3 2y ago
        The math is not that simple. Investing in Swift would to an extent canibalize Go, Dart/Flutter, TypeScript, C#. You know, the technologies which have creators that actually care and invest billions in cross-platform development. Not to mention fragmentation. Apple doesn't even care about Linux running in their own hardware. Their contribution towards that goal ranges from hostile to scraps, depending on who you ask.

afavour 2y ago

There are very few “Swift developers” out there. Much more common are “iOS developers who write in Swift”. I wouldn’t assume that any iOS engineer would be jumping all over the opportunity to make Android or Windows apps just because they can do it with Swift. They have their (typically pretty lucrative!) niche and are happy living in it.

Rimtariro 2y ago
They don't have to jump though, many iOS developers also do watchOS/macOS apps but they are still "iOS developers". If they can bring one more platform under their belt with little effort, I would say that many of them would consider it.
- callalex 2y ago
  watch/mac/iOS are all the same platform just with a different window manager.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Not really, but it is easier to think that way.
    - callalex 2y ago
      At this point how do they differ?
      - jwells89 2y ago
        Different toolkits and interaction models. AppKit is still dominant on macOS (despite the addition of Catalyst), UIKit is the chief framework on iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/visionOS, SwiftUI is native on watchOS and mostly wraps AppKit/UIKit on the other platforms. macOS is oriented around KB+mouse usage, iOS/iPadOS/watchOS are touch-dominant, tvOS is made to be remote-friendly, and visionOS is oriented around eye navigation and hand gestures.
      - 2y ago

steve1977 2y ago

In order to properly support it, Microsoft and Google would need to have a level of control over the language that Apple will never yield to them.